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Book says SBC lacks system of preventing sexual abuse Print E-mail
By Bob Allen   
Tuesday, June 09, 2009

AUSTIN, Texas (ABP) -- A book released in advance of the June 23-24 annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention claims the nation's largest Protestant faith group has more than 100,000 clergy, but no effective system of denominational oversight to protect children from sexual abuse.

This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher Predator and His Gang is a combination memoir and exposé written by Christa Brown, an anti-clergy-sex-abuse activist.

Brown tells her own story of being sexually abused by a youth minister at the Texas Southern Baptist church of her childhood and how years later as an adult she met a bureaucratic response when trying to warn denominational officials there might be a sexual predator in their midst.

Christa Brown
Brown, who was featured in a 2007 ABC News "20/20" report titled "Preacher Predators," says her abuse by a perpetrator she has named in the past but to whom she refers pseudonoymously in the book began innocently enough. She says she doesn’t know herself precisely when the relationship began to turn predatory, but over time it escalated as her abuser, several years her senior and married, groomed her into going further and further by telling her it was God's will for them to be together. She says he also criticized her, when she resisted, for her lack of faith.

At other times, Brown says, he berated her for allowing herself to be used by Satan to tempt him. One day she broke down during a piano lesson with the music minister at the same church, telling him she was afraid she was going to hell.

A few weeks later the alleged perpetrator left her church -- moving on to a larger Southern Baptist congregation where he would earn more money -- departing to praise for his service as a man of God. She was instructed to apologize to the minister's wife for "seducing" her husband -- which she did -- and told it would be best for all concerned if she never talked about it.

Brown says she is lucky compared to many survivors of clergy sex abuse. With counseling, she managed move on to what she described as a strong marriage, a loving husband and a good daughter. But when her daughter was 16, Brown said, she ran across something that reminded her of what was going on with her when she was that age. As a mother, she asked herself how she would feel if she found out the same things she experienced at age 16 were being done to her daughter by an adult she trusted.

"This Little Light" tells the story of a survivor of sexual abuse by a Southern Baptist minister and her attempts to change the system.
Brown says she began to realize that what happened to her was not an affair with an older man, but molestation and rape. The Catholic Church's pedophile priest scandal was in the news, and she got involved with the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), a support group started by Catholics but open to victims of clergy abuse from all religions. 

Due to statutes of limitations, too much time had passed for Brown to file criminal charges, but she says she assumed SBC leaders would want to be made aware there might be a sexual predator working in one of their churches.

At first, she says, she received assurances that there was no record of her alleged perpetrator still being in the ministry and that it was likely word of his past had made it through the system and stopped him from moving from church to church, thus forcing him to leave the ministry.

Later, however, she found him on her own, and learned that not only was he on the staff of a prominent Southern Baptist church in Florida, but that he was working with children. She found further he had long connections with some of the highest leaders in the SBC.

Brown wrote 18 Baptist leaders of churches and denominational agencies in four states informing them about substantiated allegations of sexual abuse, but the man remained in ministry. Eventually she went to the media. After the Orlando Sentinel, ignoring the threat of a lawsuit, reported his name, he finally resigned the ministry and took a secular job.

Brown says she thought that would be the end of it, but after writing about the experience in a guest opinion article published by the Dallas Morning News, she began receiving e-mails from others with similar stories of silencing victims and passing the buck.

Brown and other SNAP representatives contacted SBC leaders asking for dialogue about the possibility of establishing an independent review board to receive allegations of abuse against ministers, evaluate if they are credible and make findings available to local churches.

A messenger to the SBC annual meeting made a motion to consider such a panel. But after studying it for a year the denomination's Executive Committee said the idea was not feasible because of the convention's tradition of autonomy of the local church. Brown calls that a "do-nothing" response.

Brown says the public often views sexual abuse by clergy as a Catholic problem, but it affects all denominations. She says Southern Baptists, with their bottom-up governance in which local churches decide on calling their own ministers with or without input from regional and national bodies, are particularly susceptible to manipulation by sexual predators.

"Other faith groups now have review boards to assess clergy-abuse reports," she writes. "In fact, that's how most clergy wind up being removed from ministry. They lose their jobs, not because they're criminally convicted of abuse, but because a denominational review process concludes that they should no longer be allowed to work in a position of high trust as a minister."

Brown says Southern Baptists don't have such a review process, and, also unlike other groups, there is no Baptist policy of even providing a bare-bones counseling stipend for clergy-abuse victims.

Brown says abuse is not only physically, psychologically and emotionally devastating, but -- when it involves clergy -- is spiritually annihilating. She calls it "soul murder."

"When faith has been used as a weapon, it becomes almost impossible to use it as a resource for healing," she says.

Brown says she finds no comfort when people try to console her by saying her abuse was part of God's will and her predestined purpose. Without realizing it, she says, they mimic the rhetoric of her abuser. She also says it strikes her as "a very hateful view of God" to imagine he would ordain for children to be raped so they can some day advance his will.

Brown says as a kid she wanted to be like Lottie Moon, a famous SBC missionary to China, but she never imagined she might come to view Southern Baptists themselves as sort of a mission field.

Whether or not Baptist leaders ever "convert," she says it is still important that abuse survivors' stories be told.

"Silence perpetuates shame, and it is not our shame to bear," she concludes. "We give power back to ourselves in speaking our stories, and we refuse to cede power to evil."

"The evil resides not only in the monstrous acts of the ministers who commit such foul deeds, but perhaps even more so in a denominational system that allows their foul deeds to be so easily ignored."

Sing Oldham, vice president for convention relations with the SBC Executive Committee, said Southern Baptists agree that sexual abuse is "a horrible sin" causing great harm and that convention leaders encourage and equip local churches to develop policies to safeguard children in their care.

Oldham, who has not seen the book, said regardless of Brown's assessments of the SBC's polity or actions, he will be pleased if her book helps raise awareness in churches about prevention of clergy sex abuse.

-30-

Bob Allen is senior writer for Associated Baptist Press.





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Comments (108)Add Comment
Vendetta
written by Slick, June 10, 2009
This woman is on nothing more than a vendetta against the SBC because she's still having problems as a result. Her constant desire to get publicity is evidence of her penchant for hateful revenge. Frankly, I suspect her alleged experience really happened, and yet it's still just a story without substantiation. Being Baptist had nothing to do with her experience. It happens is all walks of life and it's unfortunate. The article states that she “found him on her own.” What more compelling evidence can there be but that this woman still has mental/emotional issues she can’t overcome? Writing a book to keep herself in the victim spotlight maybe. Indeed, the SBC has examined her whining and has done exactly the right thing according to Baptist polity—it has to be left to the local church. And many churches are, in fact, taking appropriate proactive measures to do background checks on those staffers and volunteers who work with younger-than-adults. This woman seems to have done little to acquire a spirit of forgiveness. Her story is not unique. Some Baptist pastors do have lapses of judgment in this area. And so do Presbyterians, Lutherans, AOGs, AME Zionists, Catholics and all the others. This woman writing a book to keep attention on herself serve no useful purpose and is unworthy of attention by AB Press.
Not a Vendetta
written by mightyfowl, June 10, 2009
What Ms. Brown says is true. There's a WHOLE lot more of it going on in the SBC than anyone will ever admit. We're all good at concealing real numbers and goings-on, as anyone who's been half-awake in the last 5 years could easily see for themselves.
What's the SBC supposed to do?
written by Ken, June 10, 2009
I don't know anything about Christa Brown, and I rarely agree with Slick, but Slick does have a point regarding local church autonomy. What exactly is the SBC supposed to do about this? They don't have the authority to dictate local church policy.
...
written by Ray, June 10, 2009
Ken and Slick both raise good points about local church autonomy. We are not like the Catholic Church or other denominations such as Methodists who have more of a hierarchical structure. However, our state, local, and national conventions and associations should offer some type of deacon or staff training in how to recognize signs of abuse, or even what to do when one is accused.
Yes they can dictate
written by Arce, June 10, 2009
The SBC can and should tell churches that they will be disfellowshipped from the SBC, and can and should encourage the state conventions to do the same, if they fail to respond appropriately to allegations of sexual abuse by pastoral staff. The SBC can and should develop a set of requirements for a proper response to allegations, including requirements to report to the SBC and state convention the allegation, provide (pay for) psychological counseling by professionals independent of the church, and make sure the congregation understands that the abused person is a victim not a perpetrator and should not be condemned for being victimized. The SBC clearly had the ability to do these things if they can disfellowship churches who employ women as "senior pastors.
More
written by Arce, June 10, 2009
If they can disfellowship churches who allow homosexuals to worship with them, or churches who support the Alliance or CBF, then why not churches that have employed sexual abusers and have not responded appropriately to the situation, as defined by professionals in the field who can be employed by the SBC to help them develop guidelines and a reporting system.
Arce
written by Ken, June 10, 2009
I only know of two churches who have been disfellowshipped over the issue of homosexuality. One of them ordained a homosexual, and the other hosted a homosexual "wedding." I know of none that have been disfellowshipped simply for allowing homosexuals to worship with them.

If any churches gave such open, blatant approval to child sexual abuse, then I would be in favor of disfellowshipping them, too. However, I don't know of any churches that are doing any such thing, so your analogy breaks down. If we discipline every church that has wayward members, we won't have many churches left.

Pastoral staff vs. members
written by Arce, June 10, 2009
I am talking only about pastoral staff and only about churches that do not so what is just good procedure when hiring and when dealing with an instance of sexual abuse, particularly of children. We should not re-victimize the victims by sweeping these things under the rug, and the SBC and state conventions could go a long way by saying this kind of behavior is unacceptable and that churches must deal with it agressively or lose their affiliation with the convention.

BTW, my experience includes one church as a member when there was a sexual misconduct issue involving pastoral staff; a second of intimate familiarity where it happened even though I had advised the pastor to stay out of a counseling relationship with the woman involved, both of whom I knew well; and a third where I served as counsel to the church involving the pastor's second (or more) affair, as well as abuse of authority and some financial issues. All of these involved adult women, one a church employee. And all were abusive, because of the special trust people put in their pastor.

We need to make the people who commit this kind of behavior, especially where it involves children or teenagers (really children), such pariahs that they never return to the pulpit. If they confess and repent, go through counseling, serve any sentence imposed, etc., then they should be welcome as a member of a different church, with restrictions on their access to potential victims. The SBC and state conventions can cause this to happen if they want to do so.

BTW, Broadway, in Fort Worth, was publicly investigated over whether they were "welcoming" or "affirming" of homosexuals who were members of the church. Such investigation regarding churches handling of sexual abuse matters would go a long way toward making churches aware of what they need to do in these cases.
Arce
written by Ken, June 10, 2009
You're still comparing apples to oranges. If churches were openly affirming child sexual abuse as a legitimate lifestyle, your comparison would be valid. I know of no churches who are doing such.

"We need to make the people who commit this kind of behavior, especially where it involves children or teenagers (really children), such pariahs that they never return to the pulpit."

I can understand your outrage, but consider the other side of the equation. Suppose someone makes false accusations against a pastor or other staff member? It's not enough to assume that victims don't lie. Recent history has proven that some victims do indeed lie.

The Southern Baptist Convention has no authority to tell churches how to handle internal matters. I agree with Ray that the SBC, state conventions, and local associations might do more to educate churches on how to handle the problem. To allow the SBC to investigate each and every charge of misconduct would set a dangerous precedent - especially with the way some Baptists like to grind axes.
More whitewashing in the very face of the sad truth
written by Jeri Massi, June 10, 2009
Oh please spare an intelligent public the lame excuse of radical church autonomy. What are you supposed to do about a church governmental system that grants wicked, perverted men total immunity when they molest children? Do you even need to ask? You repent of your folly and adopt a biblical form of church government; that's what you do.

The SBC keeps out people baptized by sprinkling, keeps gays out of the pulpit, and keeps women out of church office, so don't hand us this "we're helpless; each church is autonomous." Nothing about declaring godless, perverted men anathema because they have molested children, and keeping a record of such men, which the Bible commands by the way, is going to violate your precious Baptist phobias about daring to come in contact with other denominational persuasions. This whole "We're helpless to do anything about it" is absolute whitewashed defiance against God. Get up in your pulpits and denounce these men by name for crying out loud. Neither Paul nor John hesitated on that score, and for sins less unspeakable.

These preachers who are so blandly indifferent to the victims of their own peers ought to consider the warning of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The Rich Man was of the common mindset of his day: that God had made him rich and immune, and God had made Lazarus impoverished and sickly, and who was the Rich man to interfere with God's ways? And then in Hell he was regarded the exact same way that he had regarded this afflicted person. God had rendered it one way on earth, and the Rich man showed no mercy, and so when God rendered it the opposite way, no mercy was shown to the Rich man. You men who are indifferent to the most vulnerable members of God's flock are preparing yourselves for shame and sorrow. You ought to fear God and do the right thing.
...
written by pkrevbro, June 10, 2009
So what I'm gathering is that church autonomy trumps sexual immorality and sexual sin. Yeah, that is truly scriptural and how dare we have people trying to wage a war against sexual immorality amongst the leadership of our autonomous churches. I guess we're against homosexuality but alright with our pastors and leadership trying to get a little action from those under their charge.

Do I need to go further?
...
written by pkrevbro, June 10, 2009
Hey Slick,

Let your daughter succumb to a pastor and let her have to deal with this type of abuse.

Then get back to us.

Thanks.
pkrevbro
written by Ken, June 11, 2009
Could you please show me where ANYONE on this thread has said "local church autonomy trumps sexual sins"? Please don't twist our words. That is the tactic of a coward.

My question is, what do you expect the SBC to do about it? If a pastor commits sexual sin, the SBC has no authority to fire him. That authority belongs to the local church.
Who is in charge? The Bible or the SBC?
written by Jeri Massi, June 11, 2009
Ken, you cannot be this stupid. Well wait, I guess you can. Go read the book of Acts, and then I Corinthians, and then I and II Timothy, and then I John. The SBC needs to open an investigation into charges against an elder, receive reports, throw any perverts out of the SBC, and preach repentance to them. They need to keep a list of who has walked in such disobedience and harmed the flock of God, again, as Paul commands.

Or, flip side, keep on as they are, and have it made public that the SBC intends to do nothing about Southern Baptist ministers who are sexual predators, suffer public contempt and in the end be destroyed by God as all apostates are destroyed by God. Your pick. Frankly I don't care which one you pick, but you'd better believe that there is going to be an increasing voice from the victims, and when they all loudly declare that the SBC does not supervise its own ministers or impose accountability on them, then you are left with nothing but empty protests, because that is exactly what you are defending: THE SBC DOES NOT SUPERVISE ITS OWN MINISTERS OR IMPOSE ACCOUNTABILITY ONTO THEM. In short, The Southern Baptist convention harbors and shelters child molesting pastors, elders, deacons, and church members. And why do we say that? Because you do, and you are admitting to it and excusing yourself.

Christa Brown's book is exactly on the mark.
...
written by pkrevbro, June 11, 2009
Ken,

The article states, 'Brown and other SNAP representatives contacted SBC leaders asking for dialogue about the possibility of establishing an independent review board to receive allegations of abuse against ministers, evaluate if they are credible and make findings available to local churches.

A messenger to the SBC annual meeting made a motion to consider such a panel. But after studying it for a year the denomination's Executive Committee said the idea was not feasible because of the convention's tradition of autonomy of the local church. Brown calls that a "do-nothing" response.'

Read that second to last sentence. Read it again.

Here, let me pull it out for you too.

"But after studying it for a year the denomination's Executive Committee said the idea was not feasible because of the convention's tradition of autonomy of the local church."

Are you with me yet?

I'll be over here being a coward who actually reads the articles.

Hey Ken,

How do you think pastors get away with so much? Lack of accountability? Elders and leadership usually tend to be sympathethic to the pastor and they're not about to upset their little niche of power. Most congregations are usually afraid to stand up to abuses of leadership because they're told that they can't do anything.

I bet you stamp out any legitimate dissent or disagreement in your church home too.

Who's the more cowardly?

...
written by Carolyn, June 12, 2009
As a Roman Catholic actively involved for the last seven years in supporting many survivors of abusive priests, I am saddened and angry but not surprised at Slick's comments. Survivors have vicious charges hurled at them, when their goal is justice and accountability --- and the safety of other minors who could be at risk.

Many comments here show prudential judgment when calling for responsible leadership to deal with a scourge in our society and in all religions. Silence is not an option when crimes (not lapses) are committed against God's children.

I speak of criminal endangerment of children, accessory after the fact, obstruction of justice, and failure to report under the law. God will not be mocked by slick excuses and rationalizations for failure to act. Churches need written policies on how to handle accusations, training for adults and children about recognizing abuse, and screening of volunteers.

Much of the work is already done. See outstanding guides with warning signs of abuse, how to talk to children and keep them safe, at http://www.catholicnh.org/media/files/child-safety/Renewing Our Promise 2007.pdf There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

Policies and codes of ministerial conduct are at http://www.catholicnh.org/child-safety/policies/

My father was a Southern Baptist who married a Catholic almost 70 years ago. I welcome greater comity between the two faiths, and hope they work together to protect all God's children.
pkrevbro
written by Ken, June 13, 2009
"I bet you stamp out any legitimate dissent or disagreement in your church home too."

You rake me over the coals for disagreeing with you, and then you accuse me of trying to stamp out dissent. Grow up, huh?
Jeri Massi
written by Ken, June 13, 2009
"Who is in charge? The Bible or the SBC?"

That's precisely my point. The SBC is not in charge of this. They have no authority to control what goes in the local church. What part of that did you not understand?

If you want me to listen to your side of things, I suggest you lose the insults and the hateful tone.
All of this shrieking proves my point.
written by Ken, June 13, 2009
"The SBC needs to open an investigation into charges against an elder, receive reports, throw any perverts out of the SBC, and preach repentance to them."

But if the investigation yields nothing, then what? Suppose they have all kinds of unsubstantiated allegations, but no real proof? Shall they fall back on the old (and discredited) axiom that "victims don't lie"?

Furthermore, suppose the accusations turn out to be false? Will the accusers be thrown out of the SBC? Will the accusers be forced to make restitution to the pastor whose life and ministry has been ruined?
...
written by Lydia, June 14, 2009
Unfortuantly, this comment thread proves why we cannot protect children/teens in our churches.

There are many here who speak a lot like our leaders. Frank Page said that victims are just opportunists. Paige Patterson said they were evil.

These are men who have never been raped as kids/teens by their spiritual leaders.

We have some who are so worried about false allegations they are wlling to do nothing to protect the 'least of these' but are quite willing to insult the victims. Our hearts have become so hard that we call this perversion a 'lapse of judgement'? Incredible.

I think the problem is much deeper. It is about the purity of the Bride. Jesus Christ is not coming back for a perfect Bride (impossible since our very thoughts are sinful) but He IS coming back for a pure Bride.

Unfortuantly, we have miles of proof that sexual perverts have been coddled, explained away and judges begged even for lighter sentences by SBC leaders. We have victims ignored and called names. Those in the 'audience' of our churches believe whatevr they are taught and told. And they will support the sexual pervert and turn on the victim because that is how their 'leaders' do. They have no wisdom, discernment and no personal, intimate relationship with Christ. They 'do' church.

We see it over and over. Cheap grace is sought for the sexual pervert, even ignoring the civil laws!

There is just too much evidence of this pointing to a serious problem with our leaders and those they mentored who are now leaders in local churches.

There is a solution. Quit giving them money. Quit supporting them. Church work has become a career choice. Those who coddle and excuse perverts either on staff or leadership are NOT the Body of Christ. (Read 1 Corin 5 and then 1 Corin 2 to see how Paul handled this)

I find it interesting that Christa's abuser ended up on staff at Charles Stanley's church but when they went to confront about it, he did not want his church to know. That sums it up for us: It is about power, money and influence. So, we sweep these problems under the rug because they are not good for business. And yes, it is a business. If it were the Body of Christ, we would be striving for purity. Not nickels and noses.

I am curious as to why our leaders are not trembling for the fact they may be helping to send these sexaul perverts to hell with their cheap grace. I call the whole thing malpractice. And it has eternal consequences.
...
written by Lydia, June 14, 2009
"Furthermore, suppose the accusations turn out to be false? Will the accusers be thrown out of the SBC? Will the accusers be forced to make restitution to the pastor whose life and ministry has been ruined?"

Ken, funny you should ask. Right now victims lives are ruined and no one in SBC leadership cares except for a few empty words.

But the pervert pastor can get counseling paid for by the SBC. I read of one recently who was charged and went on paid sabbatical to Hawaii.

Even when it is proved and they are charged, the victim gets nothing but a bit of civil justice, usually from unbelievers, too. Ironic, huh?

Yet, they have lost their innocence and their church family. You can see the pervert pastor usually has quite a few rallying around him.

But you sound like many of our leaders who are more afraid of what might happen to a pastor than an innocent child. I guess it has to happen to some folks to unharden their hearts. I pray the Lord never has to teach you to have compassion. It is a hard lesson. And you would see quickly how stacked the deck is against the victim when it comes to what some call the 'Body of Christ'.....which isn't.

...
...
written by Jeri Massi, June 14, 2009
Ken wrote, "That's precisely my point. The SBC is not in charge of this."

Oh yes it is. The SBC is entirely, 100 percent responsible for failing to protect the most vulnerable people in the SBC. You cannot dodge it Ken. God doesn't read the SBC fine print. He has given us His sacred, infallible word. And the SBC eldership is responsible for not holding its own ministers to a biblical form of accountability. Abdication is a sin. You're not allowed to desert your spouse. You're not allowed to desert your children. And you're not allowed to leave the innocent in the hands of sexual predators in pulpits. Doesn't matter what excuse you pull out of your basket.

But thanks for adding to the weight of Christa Brown's evidence of thew utter indifference and contempt SBC preachers have towards the victims of their own perverted peers.
...
written by Lydia, June 14, 2009
Another reason why the SBC is responsible is because they do not hold their own entity leaders accountable. Paige Patterson insulted Gilyard's victims who approached him. There were quite a few victims. STill Patterson promoted Gilyard and Vines even preached at his 'new' church. Patterson affirmed him for 20 years and he went on to abuse many more. This is coddling a pervert. They knew there was a problem because of the sheer number of victims. One word from Patterson and Gilyard's rising career would have been stifled much earlier.

Yet Patterson still is the President of SWBTS mentoring young men to follow his example.

Steve Gaines of BBC is another example. He knew he had a confessed minister of prayer pedophile on staff and did nothing. Until it became public and the outcry forced him to act. So, he ignores scriptural qualifications about elders and yet is given speaking engagements at SBC entities such as seminaries, conferences and state associations. How is the SBC NOT responsible for that? Again, they affirm those who ignore scripture.

You're only proving my point.
written by Ken, June 15, 2009
A lot of people on this thread sound downright vindictive. I have to wonder if you're more interested in discrediting the SBC than you are in protecting victims.

I'm all for protecting children from abuse, but I think that can best be handled by the local church. For holding that opinion, I've been accused of wanting to protect abusers. Is this your idea of justice? You sound like a lynch mob.

This is exactly why I'm against giving the SBC broad powers to deal with this problem. Such a system would be abused by people who have axes to grind. Your hateful comments only prove my point.
Jeri
written by Ken, June 15, 2009
"And the SBC eldership is responsible for not holding its own ministers to a biblical form of accountability."

Eldership? You clearly know nothing about Baptist polity.
Lydia
written by Ken, June 15, 2009
"One word from Patterson and Gilyard's rising career would have been stifled much earlier."

Yeah, I can just imagine what people on ABP would have said if Patterson had lashed out against Gilyard. They'd have called him "unChristlike" and "unforgiving" and they'd have lambasted him for "not showing mercy to a fallen brother." That's a double bind.
...
written by Lydia, June 15, 2009
"I'm all for protecting children from abuse, but I think that can best be handled by the local church. For holding that opinion, I've been accused of wanting to protect abusers. Is this your idea of justice? You sound like a lynch mob."

Accountability usually sounds that way to those who want to protect their power and influence.

"Your hateful comments only prove my point."

Negative truths always sound hateful to those protecting turf

"Yeah, I can just imagine what people on ABP would have said if Patterson had lashed out against Gilyard. They'd have called him "unChristlike" and "unforgiving" and they'd have lambasted him for "not showing mercy to a fallen brother." That's a double bind. "

So that was it? Patterson was worried about bad press rather than victims of his protege' perverted preacher?

Lydia
written by Ken, June 15, 2009
I see you're resorting to the cowardly tactic of twisting my words and putting words in my mouth. Is this the kind of "justice" you wish to see in the SBC? There's a big difference between justice and revenge. You seem to be more interested in the latter.

I ask you again: what happens if someone is wrongfully accused? Thus far, everyone has dodged that question.
Lydia
written by Ken, June 15, 2009
"So that was it? Patterson was worried about bad press rather than victims of his protege' perverted preacher?"

That's not what I said and you know it. I'll thank you not to lie.
...
written by Lydia, June 15, 2009
"I ask you again: what happens if someone is wrongfully accused? Thus far, everyone has dodged that question. "

Ken, Grown ups have investigations. Grown ups call the police when there is an accusation or hint of a problem. They do not try to hide the accusation. They do not fob off the staff pervert to another church to get rid of him so it is not their problem. (That is done a lot)

It is too serious to downplay. They do not dismiss inquiries or victims as Patterson did with Gilyard.

But Ken, we have a bigger problem, perverts prey on the 'least of these'. Those who can be intimidated and believe lies easily. Now, add to that your concern that it might be a false accusation and see why these children and teens are so scared to come forward. Who would believe them over an influential leader? It can take years for the courage to come forward. And even then, look at the backlash against them from people.. They want vengence. They are unforgiving, they want to ruin a man's life. VEry few believe them. And the SBC's reaction to this problem confirms their fears.

Christa was made to apologize to her perverts wife!

That is what investigations are for. Done by professionals in the secular world who have more interest in protecting the innocents than do most churches, ironically.

And if you look at national stats, very few are false accusations. I think the last time I looked, the percentage was less than 4% that are investigated. Do we err on the side of protecting children or protecting adults from false accusations? Those are our options with each accusation. Do we want a Bob Gray to continue even though those around him knew and covered up for him? It is kept quiet because an investigation is bad for business and when there is an outside investigation the leaders lose control of the situtation.

I was once invited to observe interviews with pedophiles and rapists at a prison. I am not a social worker but was invited as an observer who would write about it for a journal. (years and years ago). What stunned me was how many victims it took for the pervert to finally get caught. The pedophiles typically had hundreds of victims before even a pattern emerged to give any accusation credibility. (The perversion graduated over time from touching to real molestation)

The other perverts had incidences of sexual harrassment, etc.that had been dismissed early as no big deal. Add to this the typical victim being young and ignorant and you have a perfect set up for someone who has influence, power and credibility as a 'minister'.

Again, Do we err on the side of protecting children from predators or protecting adults against false accusations?

Those are our options.

We know we have a problem in the SBC. That cannot be refuted. We have a problem with perverts but also with those leaders who protect and coddle them. We have a problem with them going from church to church like Christa's predator did.

Parents need to know that church is not necessarily a safe place for their kids. Especially youth groups.
Straining at gnats...
written by christa, June 15, 2009
Ken wrote: "Eldership? You clearly know nothing about Baptist polity."

So typical. Straining at gnats while swallowing camels. Complaining of terminology instead of worrying about clergy child molesters who church-hop.

Most people in the real world couldn't care less about whether you call them elders, deacons, preachers, pastors, ministers, church officials or denominational officials. What they see is that somebody in this denomination's leadership ought to be taking action... and they aren't.
...
written by Lydia, June 15, 2009
"That's not what I said and you know it. I'll thank you not to lie."

Ken this is what you wrote that prompted that response:

"Yeah, I can just imagine what people on ABP would have said if Patterson had lashed out against Gilyard. They'd have called him "unChristlike" and "unforgiving" and they'd have lambasted him for "not showing mercy to a fallen brother." That's a double bind. "

What is that? A theory? An excuse for not outing problems with Gilyard earlier? Seriously, brother, you are implying above that those are good reasons for Patterson to NOT out Gilyard's behavior. How is that a lie?

Can you explain what else it means? It seems you are implying that Patterson should fear bad press rather than do all he can to protect victims of a predator pastor.
Lydia
written by Ken, June 15, 2009
"Can you explain what else it means?"

It means no matter what Paige Patterson did, he'd have been criticized. Incidentally, you're making a pretty serious accusation. How do you know Dr. Patterson tried to protect Gilyard? Can you offer any proof or documentation? If not, then your accusation is little more than slander.

I repeat, I don't make light of the problem of child molestation, and I resent your implication that I want to protect them. However, some people seem to be arguing that we should create some kind of denominational hierarchy to deal with the problem, and I'm very much against that. Is there no way to deal with this problem that still preserves local church autonomy?

If you'd just read what I'm saying and quit trying to assess my motives, maybe we can have a civil discussion.
Christa
written by Ken, June 15, 2009
I'm not arguing over terminology. I'm saying the Southern Baptist Convention has no authority to deal with problems in the local church. We have no denominational elders or bishops. The power in the denomination is centered in the local church.

I repeat, some people seem to be arguing that we create some kind of denominational hierarchy to deal with the problem of molestation, and I'm against that. Is there no way to deal with this problem that still preserves and respects local church autonomy?
Polity excuse is red herring
written by christa, June 15, 2009
Ken asks: "Is there no way to deal with this problem that still preserves and respects local church autonomy?"

Answer: Of course. It doesn't fit in a sound-bite. Read the book. Furthermore, to my knowledge, no one has ever suggested that Baptists should abandon their polity or disregard local church autonomy. That's just a red herring.
...
written by DEBBIE, June 15, 2009
I do not understand why people, especially religious leaders do not do more to prevent sexual abuse of children.
The reason Christa does what she does is because she does not want anymore children hurt.
Explain to me why the SBC put in charge of this so called investigation to do more to make a data base had openly stated that he was against such a thing.
So how good was this investigation when the leader was against it before it ever occurred?
As for local churches investigating and taking care of this issue themselves, has been proven not to work.
As a Baptist, do we not think of the church as being a Church Family? How could you then expect this family to investigate the head of the family of such things as sexual abuse of a child? A doctor knows better than to operate on members of their own family, so why would you expect the church family to do this.
I have more than proven being abused as a teenager and in fact giving birth due to this abuse. Yet he is still the pastor of a Baptist Church, even with him admitting to having sex with a teenager and being the father of my child.
The SBC and BGCT can do more and have chosen not to do anything but use words to try to make people believe they are doing something when in reality they are not.
There is so much more I could say on this, I wanted so much to believe that these religious leaders would want to help prevent this kind of abuse. Unfortunately they have proven otherwise.
I thank Christa for speaking up and all she does. I know it is hard on her.
But unless people know about this problem how is it going to get better.
NO ONE should ever feel the pain and consequence of being hurt in this way.
...
written by Lydia, June 15, 2009
"How do you know Dr. Patterson tried to protect Gilyard? Can you offer any proof or documentation? If not, then your accusation is little more than slander."

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/article/darrell_gilyard2.html

From the Dallas Morning News. Guess you had better talk to them about slander.

"If you'd just read what I'm saying and quit trying to assess my motives, maybe we can have a civil discussion."

That is a red herring. I am only responding to your own words. Motives do not matter. Never did and never will. We are to only judge words and actions (fruit) of believers.

BTW: We already have a denominational hierarchy that is protecting Patterson. That hierarchy is now in full swing to try (and rightly so) to disfellowship Broadway Baptist in Dallas for accepting homosexuaul members. I ask why they cannot do the same for perverted preachers and staff members who go from SBC church to SBC church and for those who protect and coddle them.

http://religionblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/02/another-account-of-broadway-ba.html



...
written by DEBBIE, June 15, 2009
A Baptist Minister started touching me inappropriately when I was 14 years old and started raping me when I was 15 years. I was abused for years. When I became pregnant and it was found out, I was made to go before the church to ask for their forgiveness for being a pregnant unwed teenager, however I was told to tell who the father was, as that would hurt the church. I did as I was told and kept silent. This minister went to another state and was a pastor there and then moved back to Texas and became the pastor of yet another Baptist Church. Years later he told me about this other young girl, which is when I realized my silence had allowed him to be a position to hurt other children. This is when I had to tell. It was very hard to tell. I still had in my mind that I was to be quiet. I did not want to hurt the church, but me not telling put other children at risk. This was so hard on me, the guilt for not telling and the guilt for telling was so much on me that I tried to kill myself.
I did not tell out of any kind of vengeance or anger or to hurt anyone. I went to a number of Baptist ministers and leaders asking for help to warn his church of what he had done to me and about the girl he told me about in order to get help to this other child and to prevent anyone else being hurt like me. ( I had proof of this minister being the father of my child and a tape I had made of him when I was trying to get the name of the girl he had told me about earlier )
If religious leaders are so worried about false allegations, why do they not teach minister things they can do not only to protect children but to keep them from being accused? I sent e-mails to every seminary I could find and asked them to do that and out of all of them only one responded. If it is necessary for people to worry so much about someone who might be accused wrongly more than the children who are abused, then ask yourself what is the worse consequence for the adult who is accused against what the abused child suffers due to the abuse and what happens to them, if and when they try to tell. How are you going to justify this argument to the other children and their families who get abused when steps could have been taken to prevent it.
SBC – BGCT and others can in fact due more to prevent this kind of life altering abuse. They could keep a list and make it public of these abusers to help keep them from going from church to church and hurting other children. They are not controlling individual churches by doing this they are only giving out information that could save a child’s life. Telling a church that they cannot stay a part of their organization if a church knowingly keeps an abuser as a minister is not anything more than what they already do on other issues. So why are ministers who sexual abuse a child not as bad to them?
Local churches have not been able to fix this issue. It also appears that the church as a whole may not know the whole truth when a minister has been accused, as normally there are a few who have knowledge and as in my case those few decided that the other people in the church did not need to know about this. With all of the evidence given including his own admission of having sex with me as a teenager and getting me pregnant and the tape recording of him, these few decided to keep him on as the pastor.
I do not always know the right words or the right way to explain, but I have tried many times.
NO ONE was there to hear my cries as a child, how can I not keep telling and try to get others to make changes, so another child does not suffer. Why would religious leaders not want to do more to protect these children? Why would others not want to do more?
I know this is very long, but after reading all that I have – I feel a need to respond
I love God and my faith and wish no harm to the church. But that does not change the fact that changes are necessary and I cannot accept the excuses given as they are just that excuses.
...
written by Lydia, June 15, 2009
Debbie, Your story breaks me heart. Thank you for speaking out when so many revictimized you by forcing YOU to ask forgiveness from the church when the pervert minister was lying through his teeth. You put your trust in man because you were taught to do by so called 'spiritual leaders'. They lied to you about 'hurting' the church. He was hurting the church. This man USED the precious Name of our Savior as a cover to satisfy his own lusts. The book of Jude talks about these types:

"3Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ"

And Debbie, those who protect or make excuses for these types are just as bad and make a mockery of the Word.

I suspect some will come on here and call me hateful now, Debbie. But Paul taught in 1 Corin 5 to turn the unrepentent man over to satan so he can be SAVED in the day of our Lord.



Lydia the hypocrite
written by Ken, June 16, 2009
"Motives do not matter. Never did and never will."

Then why did you impugn my motives?

"We are to only judge words and actions (fruit) of believers."

Yet when I disagreed with you, you accused me of trying to protect molestors. Why?

"But Paul taught in 1 Corin 5 to turn the unrepentent man over to satan so he can be SAVED in the day of our Lord."

Precisely. The goal of church discipline is to RESTORE, not punish. As one pastor wisely said, "If you can discipline a church member without a broken heart and teary eyes, then perhaps you're the one who needs to be disciplined."
Debbie
written by Ken, June 16, 2009
Please understand that I don't make light of your past abuse or anyone else's. People are right to be outraged by the problem, but righteous anger can easily turn unrighteous. Lydia is a case in point.

"They could keep a list and make it public of these abusers to help keep them from going from church to church and hurting other children."

I have no problem with that, as long as they have sufficient proof that the people on the list are indeed guilty. If the list is based on allegations and hearsay, that will be tantamount to slander.
Lydia
written by Ken, June 16, 2009
I read the article about Darrell Gilyard's conviction on StopBaptistPredators. All it says is that Gilyard was mentored by Jerry Vines and Paige Patterson. How does that make them culpable for his misdeeds?
.Because they had been told about it and refused to act
written by Arce, June 16, 2009
Ken,
It has been documented that Patterson was told about Gilyard by more than one of those Gilyard had abused. Patterson told them that they needed two witnesses to an incident before he would act. Since when does an abuser commit sexual abuse in the presence of witnesses? Ken, you are spending a lot of time defending the failure of the SBC to act when, in fact, it has the power and authority to do so. If it can investigate churches for having homosexual members, it can investigate churches who harbor sexual abusing pastors. It can also publish guidelines on how to properly respond to an accusation of sexual abuse by a pastoral staff member, as well as guidelines for policies and procedures to protect potential victims. E.g., no one-on-one counseling, windows between offices and corridors, etc.
Arce
written by Ken, June 16, 2009
"It has been documented that Patterson was told about Gilyard by more than one of those Gilyard had abused."

Where has it been documented?
Patterson and Gilyard
written by Lydia, June 16, 2009
"I have no problem with that, as long as they have sufficient proof that the people on the list are indeed guilty. If the list is based on allegations and hearsay, that will be tantamount to slander. "

That is what Patterson told the victims. They did not have sufficient proof. If only sexual predators did things in the open! We would have plenty of proof and the victims would be believed. But it does not work that way, does it?

Some excerpts from the article:

Likewise, Dr. Patterson, president of Criswell College, located in the First Baptist complex, was Mr. Gilyard's former teacher and mentor.

Though many of the women who say they were involved with Mr. Gilyard said they feel guilt over their participation, they are angry at church officials who, they said, did little to protect them. One woman who said she had had a long-term affair with Mr. Gilyard said her phone calls requesting a meeting with Dr. Patterson were not returned. "His secretary said unless I had proof, he wouldn't see me.' Others recall meetings with church officials at both Victory Baptist and First Baptist churches who drilled them with questions about their emotional stability and their relationships with other men.

First Baptist officials said they knew of the allegations of sexual misconduct, which began as long as four years ago when Mr. Gilyard was removed as assistant pastor of Concord Missionary Baptist Church in Oak Cliff. But they said they did not believe those allegations, and continued to recommend him. "We were dealing with a man of special gifts and talents,' Dr. Patterson said. "I was unwilling to call anyone guilty until I had demonstratable evidence that these allegations were true.' Dr. Patterson said that according to Scriptures, action cannot be taken against a minister accused of adultery unless there are two or more witnesses. He also asked for any other proof, such as photographs, videotapes or laboratory tests.

In the interim, the dynamic preacher became even more visible.

In addition to frequent appearances on Old Time Gospel Hour, he maintained a heavy speaking schedule across the country, drawing huge crowds wherever he spoke. Most recently, he shared a platform with Iran-contra figure Oliver North at the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta. "Their greed eclipsed their vision of reality,' said the Rev. E.K. Bailey, pastor of Concord Missionary Baptist Church, where Mr. Gilyard had been removed in 1987 amid allegations of sexual improprieties. Others, such as Dr. Patterson, paint Mr. Gilyard as a victim. "It's amazing,' Dr. Patterson said, "how jealousy, frustration and racism can be motives for making accusations.'

Intimate secrets

In 1989, she says she made an appointment with Paige Patterson, one of the most prominent figures in the Southern Baptist Convention. "Darrell was there with his wife and an attorney,' the woman said. "He confronted me and said I wore suggestive clothing. I don't even own suggestive clothing.

"Paige Patterson asked me to refrain from speaking to anybody about this. He said unless I came back with two witnesses or proof that something had happened, not to come back




The Patterson-Gilyard connection
written by christa, June 16, 2009
Lydia gave a perfectly good link, but I'll give it again:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/article/darrell_gilyard2.html

Or maybe this TV news video would be of interest. Pastoral counselor Don Simpkins talks about his experience of being in a room with Patterson while numerous women reported everything from rape to sexual assaults.
\n This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it '>http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid= This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it

Most ordinary people would look at even just these two reports and say "Whoa. There's a problem." The fact that Baptist leaders don't seem to see the problem speaks volumes. And while Southern Baptist leaders don't seem to hear the message they themselves are sending with their do-nothingness, there are many others who do hear the Southern Baptist message. It's a message that says "We don't really think clergy sex abuse matters much." Actions speak louder than words.
Patterson and Gilyard
written by Lydia, June 16, 2009
More of the Dallas Morning News article

One evening, she said, he called her late at night and told her he had been having sexual fantasies about her. "I thought he had some problem that he just needed to talk about, so I said I'd pray for him.' She said the pastor asked her to meet him later in a hotel or at the church. "I agreed to meet him at the church,' she said. "There was nobody there, it was at night. We were talking by the pulpit, and we started kissing. Then he grabbed my hand and pulled me down onto the - floor, right there in the church. I was in a state of shock. This was a man I trusted. I didn't know what to do. Then he was on top of me.' She said she was able to free herself and leave. But the calls continued, she said. "I told him what we did was wrong. I even called Paige Patterson to tell him what had happened.' She said Dr. Patterson would not take her calls. "He told his secretary to tell me that unless I had some kind of proof, not to call back.'

The woman said she prayed about it for a month and wrote Dr. Patterson a detailed, 10-page letter. "He called me, but he wouldn't agree to meet with me.'

Dr. Patterson said recently that he did not recall the woman or the letter.

Two years after his arrival, Mr. Gilyard was fired in front of 1,500 members at Concord for having had sexual relationships with women members.

Mr. Bailey, who said he had heard sexual allegations from "around 25' of his own members, said he assumed that would be the end of Darrell Gilyard's bright evangelistic career. "I saw Darrell Gilyard as becoming the greatest black preacher in America,' Mr. Bailey said. But news of Mr. Gilyard's firing spread instantly through Baptist circles. "African-American churches across the country canceled his speaking engagements like popcorn,' said Mr. Bailey.

Mr. Bailey said officials from First Baptist attended the open service during which Mr. Gilyard was fired but later decided there was not enough evidence to further investigate Mr. Gilyard. "Paige Patterson wrote me an unkind letter over the whole ordeal,' Mr. Bailey said. "He basically told me that he would have come out to my church and solved the problem for me if I had told him first.'

Mr. Bailey says First Baptist continued to promote Mr. Gilyard throughout the predominantly white Southern Baptist churches. "You saw his star rising and rising,' said Mr. Bailey, "and you knew what kind of a person he was.'

Mr. Gilyard had little trouble gaining employment as assistant pastor for Hilltop Baptist Church in Norman, Okla. "I had heard the rumor s about him,' said the Rev. Dan Maxwell, the church's former pastor. "But Paige Patterson said he had been out there and talked to the women and there had been nothing to - substantiate the allegations.

...
written by Lydia, June 16, 2009
More excerpts from the Dallas MOrning News article and an article about Vines' involvement

"Darrell was really no help at all. He'd pop in and give a sermon, pop out.' Mr. Gilyard stayed less than a year, and within a week after his return to the Dallas area, allegations of sexual misconduct surfaced at the Hilltop church. Two women told church officials that Mr. Gilyard had made sexual advance s toward them, Mr. Maxwell said, and a third woman confessed to an affair with Mr. Gilyard.

Mr. Maxwell says he took his information to Dr. Patterson. Dr. Patterson spoke to the woman and said he did not believe her story. "That individual's story change d many times,' Dr. Patterson said. "That bothered me.' "

"Mr. Simpkins said Dr. Patterson asked him to counsel Mr. Gilyard once a week. "I was supposed to "polish the rough edges,' ' said Mr. Simpkins. Mr. Simpkins said that after a few visits with Mr. Gilyard, he suspected some "personality disorders' and wanted to test Mr. Gilyard . "He refused,' Mr. Simpkins recalled, "so I called Paige to let him know it wasn't going well, but he never returned any of my calls.' Mr. Simpkins said he counseled Mr. Gilyard eight times before he ended their relationship.

""The first I had heard that Mr. Gilyard had stopped counseling was several days ago,' Dr. Patterson said Thursday."

The allegations, which have come from at least four women members, were brought out in a meeting last month when an attempt to force Mr. Gilyard to resign failed.

Mr. Gilyard admitted, Dr. Patterson said, to several sexual relationships with women.

Dr. Patterson said he has withdrawn all support from Mr. Gilyard - and has asked that the pastor and his wife attend a two-week rehabilitation session. "Mr. Gilyard is no longer qualified to pastor a church,' said Dr. Patterson. He also asked Mr. Gilyard not preach or pastor a church for two years -- and then only if he can prove he has been rehabilitated. "In retrospect, Darrell should have been in counseling all along,' Dr. Patterson said."

Note: Patterson did not believe the victims. He only believed it when Gilyard admitted it and after many allegations, firings from churches, approaches by victims, and even another pastor approaching him about Gilyard.

This follows Patterson's 'pattern' of thinking less of women and his horrible treatment of Dr. Klouda at SWBTS.

But, 10 years later, Vines is affirming Gilyard as qualified to preach:

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/122407/met_228765309.shtml

What this newstory does not say is that later Vines preached in Gilyard’s church several times. He did this knowing Gilyard was not biblically qualified for ministry.








...
written by Lydia, June 16, 2009
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=12135

Note in this article that Patterson says that NOW Gilyard is not qualified to preach based on not only his admitting the sexual perversion but also because of his divorce. Yet, Patterson worked closely on SBC strategy with Charles Stanley who is divorced. No public statement from Patterson on that.

Again, the victims and another African American pastor are NOT believed by Patterson because they could provide NO tangible proof of sexual perversion. I guess he wanted pictures. He only believed it when Gilyard admitted it. Now, that is what I call protection.
...
written by Lydia, June 16, 2009
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=12262

Another article where Patterson calls SNAP "evil doers" who are "just as reprehensible as sex criminals."

Nice for a seminary president mentoring our future pastors.
...
written by Arce, June 16, 2009
Christa
The video of Simpkins did not appear for me at the site you offered, even after I cut and pasted it without the warning about needing certain software which I have.

Thanks for all of your work.
Ken, do you now have enough about Patterson?
written by Arce, June 16, 2009
Ken

So, all of the documentation shows that Patterson is so busy promoting and defending Gilyard over the years and that many women took complaints to him and he rejected them all. Do you really want to defend someone like Patterson who seems to be willfully blind to sin in his protege? Had Patterson acted on the matter in any effective way to confront Gilyard and explore the circumstances, after the second such report, how many young women would he have saved from predation. Surely he is morally culpable for his failure to act, and should be in disgrace.
Patterson-Gilyard connection
written by christa, June 16, 2009
Video here - it starts with a 17 second ad:
[url=http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid= This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it ]http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid= This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
Trying again...
written by christa, June 16, 2009
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid= This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
...
written by DEBBIE, June 16, 2009
I fear that we get off what is important. I as well as other have talked to both the SBC & BGCT about putting together a data base and making it known and taking other steps that would help protect chldren. The BGCT actually have a list, but keep it private and the SBC refuses to make a data base. What was requested from the SBC is the same guidlines that the BGCT already use on who to put on this list, except the BGCT will not take any information from victims which I believe to be wrong. The BGCT guildlines are as follows "Confirmed cases are those cases in which (1) persons have been convicted of sexual crimes; (2) confessed to sexual misconduct or sexual improprieties, or (3) there is a report from duly elected church officials that sexual misconduct or sexual improprieties have occurred." I believe they should also include when a victim brings them the same proof, but they still refuse to take it from victims. SBC refuses to make any sort of data base. I personally went and spoke to the SBC board and felt misled by these men and I am very dissappointed in the way they handle this issue.
When I have a question about something I normally go to the source and try to get things correct, but more importantly instead of dwelling on the past, I would rather work towards the future and take more steps to protect children.

Thanks for listening

...
written by DEBBIE, June 16, 2009
I CORINTHIANS 5: 11-13

But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler, With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

EXODUS 21:29

If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull must be stoned and the owner also must be put to death.

MATTHEW 18:6

But, if anyone causes one of these little one who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

LUKE 17: 1-3

Jesus said to his disciples “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.

II CORINTHIANS 4:1-2

Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways: we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God.

1 JOHN 1:5-6

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: GOD is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness we lie and do not live by the truth.

EPHESIANS 5:3

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

EPHESIANS 5:8-14

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible.

I THESSALONIANS 5:22

Avoid every kind of evil.

I TIMOTHY 3:2 – the whole chapter is in regards to leaders

Now the overseer must be above reproach

I TITUS 1: 7

Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless – not overbearing, not quick – tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.

HEBREWS 12:16

See that no one is sexually immoral

I CORINTHIANS 5: 9

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people

I CORINTHIANS 5: 1-8
It is actually reported that there is a sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. And you are proud ! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast – as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast. The yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast. The bread of sincerity and truth.

MATTHEW 10:9

And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward.
Matthew 12:36-37
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

ACTS 5:29

Peter and other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than men!”

John 10:11-13

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.”

James 1:22

Do not merely listen to the word, and do deceive yourselves, DO what it says.”

Arce
written by Ken, June 17, 2009
"So, all of the documentation shows that Patterson is so busy promoting and defending Gilyard over the years and that many women took complaints to him and he rejected them all"

This article says Patterson withdrew support when he heard about Gilyard's adultery. As I recall, Gilyard's adultery was revealed as early as 1991, and Patterson withdrew support from him then. How does that prove that Patterson knew he was a child molestor?

Arce
written by Ken, June 17, 2009
"Patterson told them that they needed two witnesses to an incident before he would act."

That's what the Bible says, doesn't it?

"Since when does an abuser commit sexual abuse in the presence of witnesses?"

So Patterson was supposed to go on the basis of allegations and hearsay? That hardly seems scriptural.
Lydia
written by Ken, June 17, 2009
"Patterson did not believe the victims. He only believed it when Gilyard admitted it and after many allegations, firings from churches, approaches by victims, and even another pastor approaching him about Gilyard."

In the first place, I question whether some of this info in the Dallas Morning News is accurate. As I recall, Patterson withdrew all support from Gilyard when it was revealed that Gilyard was involved in numerous adulterous affairs. That was at least fifteen years ago. What evidence do you have that he continued to promote Gilyard after that?

"What this newstory does not say is that later Vines preached in Gilyard’s church several times. He did this knowing Gilyard was not biblically qualified for ministry."

If the news story doesn't say it, how do you know it's true? As I recall, Vines withdrew all support from Gilyard after his adultery was revealed over fifteen years ago.

"That is what Patterson told the victims. They did not have sufficient proof. If only sexual predators did things in the open! We would have plenty of proof and the victims would be believed. But it does not work that way, does it?"

So what do you propose doing? Stigmatizing pastors on the basis of rumor and hearsay? That hardly seems fair or Christlike. Are we to assume that victims never lie? Sorry, but that axiom was disproved a long time ago.

"This follows Patterson's 'pattern' of thinking less of women and his horrible treatment of Dr. Klouda at SWBTS."

So you do have an axe to grind regarding Dr. Patterson? I suspected as much.
I rest my case.
written by Ken, June 17, 2009
The posts on this thread only prove my point. What is the SBC supposed to do? Appoint a committee to oversee allegations of sexual abuse? Suppose the committee finds no substance to the charges? Will the issue be put to rest? Hardly. Demagogues and conspiracy theorists would simply accuse the committee of "covering up." As I've said all along, it's a no-win situation.

...
written by Arce, June 17, 2009
Ken
You keep defending the indefensible. The SBC must find a way to at least provide guidance to churches and to provide assistance to them with some expertise in investigating and responding to these types of allegations, treat them with seriousness, and not attack the alleged victim(s) before there is proof that the alleged victim(s) is(are) not being truthful. Also providing professional counseling from outside the church when there is a finding that abuse has occurred.

WRT Patterson, he did not respond to multiple alleged victims coming to him, in some cases with a pastor accompanying them. He did nothing until there was a confession. When there is more than one victim, the appropriate response is to lend additional credence to their statements and not dismiss them out of hand. Patterson bears a responsibility for the additional abuse victims because of his dismissal of many complaints that were made to him because he was the promoter of Gilyard. Again, you are defending someone that really has no defense for his inaction.
Arce
written by Ken, June 17, 2009
According to the article, all of this took place when Patterson was president of Criswell College. As I recall, he left that school seventeen years ago. Why is all this coming out now?
arce
written by Ken, June 17, 2009
"The SBC must find a way to at least provide guidance to churches and to provide assistance to them with some expertise in investigating and responding to these types of allegations"

As I've said in a previous post, I have no problem with that.

"treat them with seriousness,"

In my opinion, the SBC has made an effort to do that.

"and not attack the alleged victim(s) before there is proof that the alleged victim(s) is(are) not being truthful."

Who's attacking the alleged victims? All I said was it wouldn't be fair to stigmatize pastors on the basis of unsubstantiated allegations.
...
written by Lydia, June 17, 2009
"In the first place, I question whether some of this info in the Dallas Morning News is accurate."

I suspected we would hear that.

" As I recall, Patterson withdrew all support from Gilyard when it was revealed that Gilyard was involved in numerous adulterous affairs."

REad again. Patterson stated he withdrew support when Gilyard ADMITTED IT. He did not believe another African American pastor who told him nor the victims who told him. He only believed Gilyard.

" That was at least fifteen years ago. What evidence do you have that he continued to promote Gilyard after that? "

He withdrew support. He NEVER warned other churches even when he knew Darrell was going to a new church after sexual accusations.

Even our justice system charges folks with crimes with LESS evidence than Patterson was given early on. Even the principle of a school would be suspended for an investigation with less evidence.

For some reason, we give preachers a pass.
Lydia
written by Ken, June 17, 2009
"He withdrew support."

I think that's what I said, wasn't it? You claimed Patterson continued to support Gilyard. Are you now admitting your claim was false?


"He NEVER warned other churches even when he knew Darrell was going to a new church after sexual accusations."

Wrong again. Gilyard's misdeeds were reported all over the Baptist news. If my memory serves me correctly, that was in 1991. I was in seminary at the time, and I read about in the Baptist Press. As I recall, Patterson tried to keep Gilyard from going to another church.
Lydia - and ANOTHER thing....
written by Ken, June 18, 2009
"For some reason, we give preachers a pass."

Is that so? Tell that to the thousands of preachers across the SBC who have been dismissed from churches for trivial reasons. Tell that to pastors who have been unjustly accused of misdeeds they did not commit.

For some reason, we give gossipmongers and busybodies a pass.
Why just the SBC???
written by Slick, June 18, 2009
Are all the alleged predators only in SBC churches? Has no CBF staffer ever had a lapse of judgment and committed a sin of immorality? How about the American Baptists? Missionary Baptist? Independent Baptists? National Baptist? why just the focus on the SBC? Answer: Christa Brown is on a vendetta to attach the SBC. She wants vengeance and punishment. If she had any concern about alleged victims, she’d but championing recovery efforts for them. Her so-called recovery obviously isn’t complete. Ken and I don’t often agree but he’s been right on the mark with this one.
It’s interesting that no one wants to address forgiveness in this discussion. Did not King David have a lapse of judgment? That’s right, he did and God immediately threw him away and had no more use for him. What had the thief on the cross done? All too often we are more interested with getting a pound of flesh than an ounce of forgiveness.
Fortunately, the God I serve is in the forgiving and restoring business. I have three friends in the ministry who committed errors of judgment while serving as church staff members. All three open admitted their sin and all three today are serving the Lord on the staffs of different churches. In one of those cases, a very large church refused to accept the resignation that was offered and the person remained on the same staff for many years thereafter. How wonderful it is to know and serve a God of love and restoration and how sad it is to see so many people calling themselves Christian to want nothing but vengeance.
But the big polity question here is should the SBC take measures in this area. Yes, there have been cases where congregations were disfellowshipped from local, state, and even the SBC. While I regretted the actions, I did respect the position of the organizations. I had two occasions to vote against removing churches and I did so because in both cases, the matters were for local congregation approval and not a state association. What’s next? What if the SBC or state convention doesn’t like to color of our choir robes or the time we begin services? What if a church wants to use literature other that that which is written by the ultra-radical fundamentalists at LifeWay? (BTW, I use LifeWay material) A major defining distinctive of Baptist churches has always been in autonomy of the individual congregation and that should not change. Lives ought to be changed from within by the Holy Spirit. Not by man’s dictates.
Christa's purpose ...
written by Thy Peace, June 18, 2009
From my reading, Christa Brown does not have a vendetta against SBC. But what Christa is advocating is prevention.

Mainly by attempting to convince SBC members about the need for a registry of sexual offenders.

Please note that that by the time a sexual offender is outed, there are mostly innumerable instances of abuse already committed by this person, but only that one or more have surfaced.

The other important thing Christa is doing education. By voicing thoughts, they [Christa and others] are educating public at large.
prevention???
written by Slick, June 18, 2009
I can buy a little of the argument
prevention???
written by Slick, June 18, 2009
I can buy a little of the argument about prevention but in my mind it’s a very shallow argument. A registry does nothing more than pass along a little info to an SBC church that might choose to look at it. Essentially it prevents little. Prevention deals with the problem and addresses the motivations that lead to improper behavior and does not focus on simply locking them outside. Christa The Whiney, as well as some others who have responded to this thread, would want someone on her ‘registry’ based on nothing more than an accusation.

She-said/he-said accusations are worthless and are too easily used to achieve one’s objectives or retributions, to wit: Joseph & Potipher’s wife. It is most unfortunate that in our society, one who is accused of sexual misbehavior has to prove his/her innocence rather than being innocent until proven guilty. An accusation such as some on this thread is NOT proof of any wrong doing. Please know that I have tremendous sympathy for those who have been the victim’s of real sexual abuse and I don’t diminish their circumstances one bit and yet for a women to claim that a church staff member forced sex upon her is totally insufficient evidence of any malfeasance.

People who care ought to be encouraging potential victims of forced sex to avoid situations where such things could occur; to be on the lookout for warning signs in encounters with staff members; and to run to the LAW if something untoward happens. Present proof to law enforcement agencies that a crime has been committed and then have it prosecuted in court.

My observation is that Christa The Whiney wants to chop off the heads of anyone who has been accused, whether or not there is an admission or proof of guilt. And again I ask, why just the SBC? If her cause were so virtuous and noble wouldn’t it extend to all congregations of all denominations? Wouldn’t it extend to all public and private schools? Wouldn’t her cause focus on preventative treatment for those who might offend? What about help for those who either admit wrongdoing or who are proved guilty? Keeping them out of church work isn’t going to prevent a recurrence.
Christa's purpose ...
written by Thy Peace, June 18, 2009
Even if Christa Brown is silent and the same with all the victims, the abuses would still continue. Christa is not the abuser. She is pointing out abuses. If SBC does not follow Christa's suggestions, then natural laws (laws of cause and effect) will triumph. The result would be more victims and more anguish.

But given the era of blogging, the rules have changed. Christa and others are not hiding anymore. They will continue to speak up and speak out. It does not matter if SBC leadership continue to ignore Christa and other victims. Eventually their voices will have natural effects. SBC will soon realize they are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes, Emperor without clothes.
correction of link
written by Thy Peace, June 18, 2009
another correction
written by Thy Peace, June 18, 2009
It appears ABP stripping ' from links: another attempt ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes
no luck
written by Thy Peace, June 18, 2009
try this ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes
Thy Peace
written by Ken, June 18, 2009
I can go along with the idea of a national registry if - and only if - it consists only of those whose guilt has been established beyond reasonable doubt. Anything else would be tantamount to slander and scandal-mongering.

I made this point earlier and some people on this thread took issue with it. What are we supposed to do? Presume guilt until proven innocent? I hardly think that's scriptural or Christlike.
Legal standard, not pulpit standard
written by christa, June 18, 2009
With all the legal and evidentiary burdens that go along with it, "innocent until proven guilty" is a presumption of the legal system for whether a person should go to prison. It's not a standard for whether a person should be in the pulpit.

If a man can stand in a Baptist pulpit until he's proved guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt," then that's a much lower standard than what most other major faith groups in this country have for their clergy. Parents: Be warned.
...
written by DEBBIE, June 18, 2009
The BIBLE states that ministers are to be held to a higher standard. This does not mean that one cannot or should not forgive, but to forgive is not to forget and does not mean you put that person in a position to be able to hurt any other children.
Would you put a recovering alcoholic to work in a liquor store?
What gives anyone the right to hide information from parents who have a right to know who they are entrusting their children?
You cannot justify putting someone who sexually abused a child in the ministry.
Christa and other victims have been trying to find ways to protect children. She and I were abused by Baptist Ministers and therefore is what we have direct knowledge of and therefore where we are trying to bring about change. Sex abuse by anyone in a position of trust in any organization is wrong and some have already come up with ways to prevent this and some have not and unfortunately Baptist have not
I had proof that I was sexually abused – it was not he said she said – I had a baby
I was a teenager. So tell me why other ministers did in fact cover this up and tell me to be quiet? Tell me why I was attacked when I finally told even with all the proof I had including a taped conversation with this minister? Explain why his church did not want to warn the congregation or to remove him as their pastor?
No victim should ever be treated so horribly. Not everyone can have absolute proof, but that does not mean they did not tell the truth, that is one reason there needs to be an impartial panel look in to accusations. By time someone is able to tell it is probably too late for any criminal investigation by officers of the law. I have seen first hand that ministers do not report this to the law. In fact the minister that abuses a child is treated better than any victim and you do not see something wrong in that?
Child molesters do not wear a label on them or tell everyone hay I abuse children. So you do not really know if these other ministers really did or did not abuse anyone else and why would you take the chance?
A list of those who have been convicted or confessed or there is enough creditable evidence should be put on a database. The SBC could and should make committee to investigate allegations to decide when there is no conviction or confession to see if there is enough evidence to put them on the list. If you have non Baptist – such as an impartial therapist who specializes in this area to be on the committee with Baptist leaders then you would show it is a fair recommendation on whether or not to put them on the list. You could also specify why the person is on the list i.e.; confession – conviction or because of evidence then people could have an informed decision.
To be a minister/pastor – is a great honor and comes with a lot of responsibilities. Ministers/pastors are supposed to be servants of God who among other things are responsible to educate and watch over God’s children not destroy their lives. The database is just one tool one suggestion. Education on prevention and how to respond when someone does come forward is also important. I suggest that if all the energy spent on saying what cannot be done be spent finding things that can be done we all would be better off.
...
written by Lydia, June 18, 2009
"Is that so? Tell that to the thousands of preachers across the SBC who have been dismissed from churches for trivial reasons. Tell that to pastors who have been unjustly accused of misdeeds they did not commit.

For some reason, we give gossipmongers and busybodies a pass."

So that is what this is all about. Do you have a list of pastors dismissed for being wrongly accused of sexual perversion? I would like to see it. Then, send them to Hunt's City of Refuge program. Unfortuantly, there isn't one for victims of predator preachers.
cheap grace
written by Lydia, June 18, 2009
"t’s interesting that no one wants to address forgiveness in this discussion. Did not King David have a lapse of judgment? That’s right, he did and God immediately threw him away and had no more use for him. What had the thief on the cross done? All too often we are more interested with getting a pound of flesh than an ounce of forgiveness. "

Raping a kid is a lapse of judgement? Murdering a man to marry his wife is a lapse of judgement? Why not call it what God does: SIN.

BTW: In the New Covenant, scripture tells us that the elder must be above reproach to the 'outside'. (1 Tim 3). Many are ignoring that and saying it does not mean what is says that a pastor or elder or rapes, sodomizes, molests a kid cannot be restored to LEADERSHIP. They believe they can be. Can they be restored to the Body of Christ? YES! Leadership: NO.

But if they seek leadership after that,when they should be in prison,that tells us a lot about them. Forgiveness does not mean they do not serve time for violating civil laws. Forgiveness does not mean they are restored WITHOUT serious true repentence. Paul in 1 Corin said to kick them out so that they can be saved in the Day of our Lord.

It really is amazing how men will overlook the sins of leaders and ignore the sheep who have been deceived. You are preaching a form of cheap grace for some but not for others.
...
written by Lydia, June 18, 2009
He who justifies the wicked is an abomination to God
People like lydia, debbie, jerri, & christa....
written by Slick, June 19, 2009
People like these are always going to be blind to the facts and see only what they want to see so having any discussion with them is pointless. Their minds are made up. The slightest hint that something improper occurred is proof enough for them that hint is now fact. These are angry, unforgiving people who want continuous punishment and unrelenting earthly damnation for those they think might have made a mistake. They want to harp on the word sin and that's okay...sin, lapse of judgment, mistake...it's all the same. They just think sin sounds harsher. They forget that they, to are, sinners and probably continue to sin as we all do. They want the God of vengeance and seem to know nothing about His love, forgiveness, and restoration. This is really sad. Citing isolated scripture as proof texts is to ignore the totality of the Bible.


Again, I ask, why just the SBC? None of these people will address that question. If it were an issue of abuse by members of the clergy, why are they not after all the other denominations? It happens there as well. Such focused attention on only the SBC leads me to conclude that it's a vendetta.

The term cheap grace has been used here. No one has said that those who admit guilt or are proven guilty should be spared the consequences of their behavior and if it was illegal, they should be prosecuted in court. But God remains in the forgiving business and vengeance is His to administer in his time. He chastens His children in His own way.

One post whined about concern over false accusations. That is just as big of an issue as sexual misconduct. You care not that a minister’s life and career would be destroyed by a false accusation. You care not about his family after such a false accusation. This isn’t about protecting a minister—it’s about doing right!

None of us discussing this issue will disagree that ministers of any denomination who admit guilt or a proven guilty deserve a free pass. Removing them from their ministry will not necessarily stop some of them from molesting, if they have psychological issues causing a disposition toward molestation. Other ministers do, as King David did, stray from the paths of righteousness but find redemption and restoration in God’s loving providence.

I’m glad to know that people like the ones I mentioned are perfect in every way, totally sinless, and never in need of grace.
christa
written by Ken, June 19, 2009
So what are you suggesting? Should they be presumed guilty until proven innocent? That's hardly fair.
Lydia
written by Ken, June 19, 2009
"He who justifies the wicked is an abomination to God"

So is a lying tongue and a false witness (Proverbs 6:16-19).

"Do you have a list of pastors dismissed for being wrongly accused of sexual perversion?"

I know of several.

"I would like to see it."

Why? So you can slander them further?

"Unfortuantly, there isn't one for victims of predator preachers."

There's no list of slanderers and false accusers, either, and they're far more abundant in the SBC than sexual predators. You'd better be glad there's no such list, because you'd probably be at the top of it.
What we're suggesting
written by christa, June 19, 2009
Ken asked: "So what are you suggesting?"

Answer: The denomination needs to provide (1) a safe and welcoming place for people to report clergy sex abuse, (2) an objective, professionally trained panel for responsibly assessing abuse reports, and (3) an efficient means of assuring that the assessment information reaches people in the pews - i.e., a database.

No one has ever suggested that ministers should be "presumed guilty." To the contrary, we have been asking that abuse reports be responsibly assessed. Because Baptists are so far behind the curve on this, as compared to other major faith groups, they don't need to re-invent the wheel. If only they would muster the will for action, they could follow and adapt guidelines and assessment practices that are already being used in other faith groups in this country. Action speaks louder than words.

christa
written by Slick, June 19, 2009
“ The denomination needs to provide a safe and welcoming place for people to report clergy sex abuse.”
Hogwash! We don’t have a perfect legal system in this country but it is by far the best in the world. Every law enforcement agency has a process to report sex abuse. Every church can have its own process. The SBC does not control individual congregations. Hard to see why you can’t understand that. If the SBC did, it would first require every church to send a significant percentage of offerings to the SBC!

“ an objective, professionally trained panel for responsibly assessing abuse reports”

I’d suggest here that unless your panel convicted a pastor on unsubstantiated, unproven allegations, you’d yell that it wasn’t objective or professionally trained. Churches do, by the way, take appropriate action when there is proof. You may not agree with the appropriateness of the action but it happens. The local congregation has the authority to handle situations in ways other than drawing and quartering the accused—apparently the only ‘action’ that will satisfy you.

“an efficient means of assuring that the assessment information reaches people in the pews - i.e., a database”

More hogwash. I must wonder if you want all your sins to follow you all your life. Would you like to have all your indiscretions, sins, lapses of judgment, mistakes, etc., constantly on public display. You have nothing but a spirit of vengeance and frankly I feel sorry for you. You must lead a miserable life. What did Jesus say to the woman caught in adultery? What did He say to the thief on the cross? The woman at the well? Peter after the denial? Frankly my dear, you need to know a lot more about Jesus and what he taught.


Do you even know what the power curve is?
Christa's experience
written by Thy Peace, June 19, 2009
I truly admire and respect both Christa and Lydia. God bless you both.

Clearly SBC Leadership does not agree with Christa's suggestions. So we continue as before. We will continue to make our voices heard.

http://dannimoss.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/the-holocaust-through-one-persons-eyes/

The Church Holocaust Through One Person’s Eyes by Dani Moss.

Please read the above post. It contains excerpts from Christa Browns's book "This Little Light".

It shows how not only was Christa raped sexually, but spiritually and soulfully. It is truly sickening.

Where is God in all this? Why is Grace only shown by the Church to the abusers but not to the victims?

This is one of the primary reasons why there is so much hypocrisy and why ordinary people do not trust Church officials. May God have mercy on their souls on Judgement Day.

I don't mean to be uncaring...
written by Slick, June 19, 2009
...but what proof is there besides christa brown's claim that the events she alleges actually happened? I'm not calling her a liar or arguing that it never happened—I don’t know. I have no reason to either believe or disbelieve her. What I’m asking is where the proof is. What could an objective panel conclude based on her story alone absent any other corroboration? And where does the witch hunt stop? What about church staffers who look at porn (gasp!) or lust in their hearts, or buy a lottery ticket?

Now suppose there had been this panel that she (and a very few others) wants back when this allegedly happened? What would the objective panel have done? How can anyone prove she was telling the truth? Suppose she was truthful but there was nothing but her testimony against the pastor’s word that he didn’t do it? Would anyone have been “protected” after that? Of course not. If the pastor had been guilty but the panel didn’t have evidence of guilt, he’d be free to try it again
...
written by DEBBIE, June 19, 2009
“People like lydia, debbie, jerri, & christa....
written by Slick, June 19, 2009
People like these are always going to be blind to the facts and see only what they want to see so having any discussion with them is pointless. Their minds are made up. The slightest hint that something improper occurred is proof enough for them that hint is now fact. These are angry, unforgiving people who want continuous punishment and unrelenting earthly damnation for those they think might have made a mistake. They want to harp on the word sin and that's okay...sin, lapse of judgment, mistake...it's all the same. They just think sin sounds harsher. They forget that they, to are, sinners and probably continue to sin as we all do. They want the God of vengeance and seem to know nothing about His love, forgiveness, and restoration. This is really sad. Citing isolated scripture as proof texts is to ignore the totality of the Bible. “

I do not know who you are “Slick” but it appears that you are the one who is closed minded.
Raping a child is more than “a mistake”
You do not know me, so I can understand some of your misunderstanding, but I assure you I do not harbor anger nor do I wish “continuous punishment” on anyone. I just want to find a way to keep them from sexually abusing another child. There is a big difference.
You may want to read the Bible again. You lack understanding.
Never once did I ever claim to be perfect and all of us have sinned including myself, but I have never hurt another person especially not a child.


”Again, I ask, why just the SBC? None of these people will address that question. If it were an issue of abuse by members of the clergy, why are they not after all the other denominations? It happens there as well. Such focused attention on only the SBC leads me to conclude that it's a vendetta. “

That is a false statement. As I already stated that all organizations need to address this issue and some have as for the Baptist – I am a Baptist and the minister that raped me is a Baptist and therefore I can speak first hand on how Baptist handle this issue. This is not a vendetta as you put it. It is caring and knowing that other children need help and if I do not speak to this issue then it is my church that is leaving their children open to being hurt and I do not want that to happen.
...
written by DEBBIE, June 19, 2009
”The term cheap grace has been used here. No one has said that those who admit guilt or are proven guilty should be spared the consequences of their behavior and if it was illegal, they should be prosecuted in court. But God remains in the forgiving business and vengeance is His to administer in his time. He chastens His children in His own way. “

I as many other victims of sexual abuse as a child are unable to tell when they are young, so by time you are able to tell it is past the Statue of Limitation and therefore the courts cannot prosecute. Yes God is a forgiving God, but that does not mean that he wants someone who sexually abused a child to be in a position to hurt more of his children. Do you recall the story of how Jesus chased out those in his father’s house for turning it into a market see John 2:15-16
So what do you think Jesus would do when he saw a minister rape me in church “God’s House” when I was a teenager?

”One post whined about concern over false accusations. That is just as big of an issue as sexual misconduct. You care not that a minister’s life and career would be destroyed by a false accusation. You care not about his family after such a false accusation. This isn’t about protecting a minister—it’s about doing right! “

There is a big difference in a small amount of adults who’s lives are changed and they have to work somewhere outside the church and for those few who lives are hurt by a false accusation I do feel sad for them, but their lives and what they suffer are no where close to what happens to a child who is sexually abused by a minister. If someone is truly called by God and really believes in the Bible then they would understand and want to do what is needed to protect God’s children. When a person becomes a minister, he knows that sometimes it will be hard and they are not supposed to put themselves above others. Is that not why Jesus washed the feet of his disciples to teach that lesson of being humble and to serve?

”None of us discussing this issue will disagree that ministers of any denomination who admit guilt or a proven guilty deserve a free pass. Removing them from their ministry will not necessarily stop some of them from molesting, if they have psychological issues causing a disposition toward molestation. Other ministers do, as King David did, stray from the paths of righteousness but find redemption and restoration in God’s loving providence. “


I do not know why you keep using King David as an example. He did not rape a child.
Of course putting a molester out of the church does not mean he will stop abusing others, but at least he will not do it in the church. Using God as an excuse or as a weapon to hurt children. Do you think God wants his name and his church associated with a person who rapes children? Do you want predators to know that church is a safe place for them to abuse children, because action is not taken to prevent them from doing this?

“I’m glad to know that people like the ones I mentioned are perfect in every way, totally sinless, and never in need of grace. “

That was just an uncalled for statement. It appears that there is something that is hurtful in your life, or you would not lash out like this, for that I feel sorry for you.
...
written by Lydia, June 19, 2009
"Raping a child is more than “a mistake”"

The more they talk the more they prove our point. They just cannot bring themselves to say that a minister raping a kid is a heinous crime. Funny how the secular world gets it.

They do not want to believe it happens in their beloved man centered institutions. They want to call the rape of a kid a 'mistake' or 'lapse of judgement'. But we know it is premeditated, willful sin. Hebrews 10:26-31 has something to say about that.

I pray that God does allow them to be taught compassion for victims of this heinous crime the hard way. I am glad they are commenting here. People need to know what rotten fruit lurks in our churches. Many who are more apt to support the predator than they are to protect kids.
Prove the crime
written by Slick, June 22, 2009
Nowhere have I ever advocated excusing anyone who admits or ir proven guilty of committing a crime against anyone, child, adult, whatever. These people should be prosecuted in a criminal court and serve the sentence the court imposes. I'm sure there have been and will be occasions when I think the court was too lenient but I think most (not all, but most) judges try to be objectives and do the right thing considering all aspect and person involved.

It is enormously sad that we have criminals in our society, in our churches, in our schools, in our military, everywhere. But that’s life and our society has a way to address the problem. I am saddened to read the accounts of victims of sexual abuse. In fact, it is a more wide spread problem than people realize. I spent 25 years in education both and the public school and college levels and I’ve heard many things that have happened. My issue here is that a few women want to single out the Southern Baptist Convention as being the harboring agency for pedophiles. That’s not the case at all. It is the individual SBC congregation’s responsibility to police this, not the SBC. I think research will bear out that many if not most SBC churches are being proactive in this regard.


Debbie
written by Slick, June 22, 2009
You said:
"There is a big difference in a small amount of adults whose lives are changed and they have to work somewhere outside the church and for those few who lives are hurt by a false accusation I do feel sad for them, but their lives and what they suffer are nowhere close to what happens to a child who is sexually abused by a minister."

So it sound like you find nothing wrong in someone making a false accusation of sexual misconduct again someone else, especially a minister. I cannot believe anyone in their right mind could take that position. I don't know if you are married our not but how would you, your children, your extended families feel if someone falsely, but somewhat believably, accused your husband of raping them? Would the fact that only “few” and “small amount of adults” were affected make it okay with you?

And have you done paternity testing that would prove that the minister you accuse was the father of your child? Statutes of limitations notwithstanding, such evidence presented to his current church would likely get him out of the pastorate. How do you respond when someone says that your failure to do that has allowed him to potentially violate others? I’m not attacking you here but while it is true that a young person may not know what to do, an older person does and it this is a issue with you, it seems you ought to bring the proof to his current church.
...
written by Lydia, June 22, 2009
"I think research will bear out that many if not most SBC churches are being proactive in this regard."

Actually reported FACTS say just the opposite. Christa's website has that information. It is based on FACTS.

AS a matter of fact, when it finally comes out you see the church or even leaders work hard to get them off easily or lighten their punishment. One man even wrote to a judge on his Baptist entity letterhead asking for a very light sentence.

Ever heard of Trinity Baptist in Jacksonville? Oh, the examples are endless. Point is, churches are NOT handling it well at all. The focus is the preserve the institution and downplay the evils within. NOt good for business, ya know.

And they resent the victims for making it known. You just do not want to admit that your beloved SBC (which I was raised in, too and still am in) is as evil as the RCC in this respect. One coddled pedophile minister of prayer (at Bellevue Baptist Church) is ONE too many. So, tell me, why is Steve Gaines still given speaking engagements for SBC entities? He ignored scritpure.
lydia
written by Slick, June 22, 2009
You said:
“… you see the church or even leaders work hard to get them off easily or lighten their punishment. One man even wrote to a judge on his Baptist entity letterhead asking for a very light sentence.”

Your comment here and many others you have made in this discussion are ample evidence that all you want is maximum vengeance. You must lead a sad, bitter life. I feel sorry for you and anyone who harbors such bitterness. Maybe it’s because no one ever showed you any mercy.

You also said:

“Ever heard of Trinity Baptist in Jacksonville? Oh, the examples are endless. Point is, churches are NOT handling it well at all. The focus is the preserve the institution and downplay the evils within. NOt good for business, ya know.”

Yes, I have heard of Belleview and Trinity and many others. Just as individuals err, so do churches. In your view, a church that does not handle a situation the way you want it to is not handling it well. Who set you up as an authority on how churches should operate? And since you have such bitterness toward the SBC, why are you still part of it? Would you not be happier with another denomination that approaches these issues is a way that suits you?

The venom spewed from you as you said:

“ You just do not want to admit that your beloved SBC (which I was raised in, too and still am in) is as evil as the RCC in this respect. One coddled pedophile minister of prayer (at Bellevue Baptist Church) is ONE too many. So, tell me, why is Steve Gaines still given speaking engagements for SBC entities? He ignored scritpure.”

What would you say to Jesus who said, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone?” Somehow I see you scrambling for the closest rock and telling Jesus he wasn’t handling it well.
...
written by Lydia, June 22, 2009
"In your view, a church that does not handle a situation the way you want it to is not handling it well. Who set you up as an authority on how churches should operate?"

It is pretty clear in scripture. But then you would know that if you knew scripture.Check out just these few: 1 Corin 5 and 1 Tim 3. Steve Gaines said those were just 'guidelines' for elders.

Slick, please tell me you are more clever than to just repeat the same tired accusations as 'bitterness' and 'vengence'. Doesn't stopping future rapes and molestations of children in our churches concern you? What on earth is it that makes folks want to cover this stuff up in the church? Can folks who cover this up, like Gaines, and many more, really be of Christ? Perhaps we should start there.

You are concerned for the purity of the Bride, aren't you? Perhaps not.
Christa's book reviews and posts - link to more links
written by Thy Peace, June 22, 2009
http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2009/06/this-little-light.html?showComment=1245517048729#c9144233618239013844

The above is a comment full of links to book reviews and posts of Christa's book.
...
written by Slick, June 23, 2009
You asked: “So, tell me, why is Steve Gaines still given speaking engagements for SBC entities? He ignored scritpure.”

Response: I have no idea. You should be asking those who invite him to speak. I would assume that he is speaking because he’s been asked to do so by those who want to hear what he has to say.

Then you said: “please tell me you are more clever than to just repeat the same tired accusations as 'bitterness' and 'vengence'.

Response: Sorry but that is all I see from you, some other women in this discussion and crazies like Nancy Grace and Wendy Murphy. The bitterness and desire for vengeance is plainly obvious.

You also asked: “Doesn't stopping future rapes and molestations of children in our churches concern you? What on earth is it that makes folks want to cover this stuff up in the church? Can folks who cover this up, like Gaines, and many more, really be of Christ?

Response: You seem to want to rank sins with some being worse than others. It was simple disobedience that brought sin into humanity. Yes, abuse of anyone—child or adult—is abhorrent and offensive but so are other sins to God. I’m sure that God is just as displeased with an unforgiving spirit as He is with sexual abuse of anyone. Both are wrong. Both can be called sin.

Finally you asked: “You are concerned for the purity of the Bride, aren't you?”

Response: I am concerned with building my relationship with the Lord and walking with Him every day through prayer and studying His Word. The blood of Jesus has made us all wholly acceptable before God. He has forgiven the sins of those who have come to Him, confessed and repented, and He will remember them no more. It is up to God—not you and your whiney comrades to determine who serves Him in a church or elsewhere. You miss the point of the story about your fretting over the speck in the other guy’s eye and ignore the plank in yours!

I’ve answered your questions. Now answer mine:
1.And since you have such bitterness toward the SBC, why are you still part of it?
2.Would you not be happier with another denomination that approaches these issues is a way that suits you?
3. What would you say to Jesus who said, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone?” Somehow I see you scrambling for the closest rock and telling Jesus he wasn’t handling it well.
Pastoral sins
written by Slick, June 23, 2009
Here is a link to a very good article about pastoral sins. http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/thepastor/soulspirit/whenapastorstruggles.html

I am sure some of the closed-minded in this discussion will object because they want nothing but eternal damnation for a minister who commits a sin but the article is worth reading.
...
written by DEBBIE, June 23, 2009
“Slick” I have to wonder who you are and what you do

You seem to have a lot of anger

I also have to wonder why you feel so obligated to defend ministers who rape children

Sin is Sin this is true when it comes to our need of salvation.

But forgiving someone for a sin does not mean to put them in a position to hurt another child.

Instead of name calling and trying to bully victims, may I suggest that you think of something positive to contribute to making our churches safer.

100 comments
written by Slick, June 29, 2009
Is this to most commented on article of the year? Interesting if it is because christa brown and her tiny group of followers are really insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Having read ever page of her attack website, (many, many bad links, BTW) I am even more convinced that she is after nothing more than vengence and keeping up a constant attack against those who made a mistake in the past, may have repented and been restored by God and are still doing the who He wants them to do. This is ultimately a wicked and evil woman, in my opinion.
...
written by DEBBIE, June 29, 2009
It is sad that you are the way you are Slick. The fact that you are on a church staff saddens me.
The fact that you hide under the name “Slick” shows that you are hiding who you are, that also makes me concern.
I do not know why you have so much hate in you, maybe you should seek counseling.
Christa and others are not tying to seek vengeance. They are trying to bring about changes that would help protect other children from being abused.
No one who sexually abuses a child should ever be in a position to hurt other children
We all have a responsibility to protect children and not put them at risk.

I will pray for you
Poor debbie
written by Slick, June 30, 2009
You and christa and others like you are doing absolutely NOTHING to protect children despite your holier-than-thou attitudes. All you want is to punish--eternally punish--someone. Doing all you can to publicize a person's past sin accomplishes NOTHING! You think that kicking a person out of a church ministry position is going to stop a pedophile from doing it again? Anyone who really believes that shows how simple minded he or she is. But not all who commit what you want to call a sexual sin are pedophiles. Most are people whose human judgment was clouded. That is not to diminish the impact of their sin, but served to teach them a valuable lesson about doing right and avoiding wrong. You seem to be fully free of sin in your life now or in your past. You seem not to need God’s grace nor man’s forgiveness because you’ve never done anything wrong.

You seriously cannot believe this vendetta does anything to protect children. If you wanted to do that you’d be championing efforts for recovery for ministers who commit the actions you condemn. You’d be praying for them and their families and those they have hurt. But what do you want? You want to follow them wherever they are and be sure they never get another chance to do right. You want to play God. Frankly, my dear, you and other like your are the ones who are sick and in need of help.
Soft on Sin??
written by Slick, June 30, 2009
Lest anyone think that I am soft of sin or prefer to ingore it, be assured that I am not. I deplore, hate, dispise sin in my life and I am troubled when I know I have fallen short of God's mark. With regard to sin on the lives of other people, I am not interested in vengence or punishment but in correction and freedom from repeating that sin over and over.

I commend to each reader here a fine article I just encountered. It speaks, or should speak, to many who have been in this discussion. Please read and consider it. The link is below.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/communitylife/discipleship/sintamer.html


...
written by DEBBIE, June 30, 2009
“You and christa and others like you are doing absolutely NOTHING to protect children despite your holier-than-thou attitudes. All you want is to punish--eternally punish--someone. Doing all you can to publicize a person's past sin accomplishes NOTHING!”

“SLICK” you again have made false statements. I as well as Christa have been trying to get rules passed to help protect other children. Due to Christa’s efforts people are more aware of the problem and have become more careful in whom they have in their church as leaders, which have protected other children. Also by allowing victims to be able to talk about what happened to them, helps them to heal. As far as myself – I said nothing and did nothing to hurt or punish the minister who raped me when I was a teenager, until he told me about another child. He therefore forced me to come forward as that child’s safety was in danger. I went to ministers and others to try to get someone to warn his church and to let them know what he had said so to look for that child and prevent any further harm. Only after all the efforts I made which did not work – I had no other option that I could see but to file a lawsuit. Even after I filed the lawsuit nothing was really done to protect any other child and he was still allowed in a position to hurt children. When a reporter asked me questions, I answered as it was important to get the information out, so the child would know it was okay to tell as well as informing others of the risk. It was not to punish but to protect. I have a lot of evidence to this affect.

“You think that kicking a person out of a church ministry position is going to stop a pedophile from doing it again? Anyone who really believes that shows how simple minded he or she is”

This was address before – no one thinks that kicking a person out of the ministry will change the minister, but at least he will not be raping children in the church. It will make churches safer for children

“ But not all who commit what you want to call a sexual sin are pedophiles. Most are people whose human judgment was clouded. That is not to diminish the impact of their sin, but served to teach them a valuable lesson about doing right and avoiding wrong. “

I do not care what label you put on it – Raping a Child is Raping a Child and should not be tolerated.
To simply say that a person’s “ judgment was clouded” is wrong. Clouded or not rape is rape. The harm done to a child cannot be fixed. To allow this person to stay in ministry unjustly puts other children at risk. If the minister who raped the child learned a lesson, then he would willingly leave the ministry

“ You seem to be fully free of sin in your life now or in your past. You seem not to need God’s grace nor man’s forgiveness because you’ve never done anything wrong.”

Again, No one said that I or anyone else is without sin and not in need of God’s Grace. Again for some reason you seem to want to pick on victims. Considering that you are on staff at a church, your attitude really concerns me.


” You seriously cannot believe this vendetta does anything to protect children. If you wanted to do that you’d be championing efforts for recovery for ministers who commit the actions you condemn. You’d be praying for them and their families and those they have hurt. “

There is no vendetta – just a desire to protect other children from being hurt. Yes my actions and Christa’s action have actually helped others. I do in fact pray for the ministers who commit these crimes as well as the families who lives have been hurt.

“But what do you want? You want to follow them wherever they are and be sure they never get another chance to do right. You want to play God. Frankly, my dear, you and other like your are the ones who are sick and in need of help.”

What I want are safer churches better guidelines and background checks to keep predators out of our churches. I want victims to have the ability to ask for help and to know they can do this without the loss of their church family and without being made out to feel guilty for something a minister did to them. I do not now or ever want to play God nor have I ever indicated that. Yes victims need help. Ministers who rape children need help as well but they do not ever need to be in a position to hurt any other child. When a minister rapes a child they are not supposed to remain as ministers, which is clear in the Bible.
Debbie's misplaced focus
written by Slick, July 01, 2009
Sorry, bitter and misguided woman, but your argument holds no substance at all. You think what you and other vindictive women like you are doing can make thing better but it won’t. You totally fail to address the real factors. One, people (not just ministers) who take sexual advantage of young people. And two, making young people aware of potential dangers.

Your angry approach does nothing to help anyone. You seem to think that only ministers commit these acts. How foolish of you! Anyone can commit them. Volunteer Sunday School teachers, choir leaders, and other adults can do the same things.

And what are you doing to help young people recognize dangers? NOTHING? Your constant whining that the SBC needs a list of bad boys is just a smokescreen to veil your real intent—to promote continuing, lifelong punishment.

Frankly, you babble on and talk out of both sides of your mouth, and use quite poor grammar, which significantly reduces your so-called mission to nothing more than drivel. You say in one sentence that letting victims talk helps them heal. I’ll buy that. But later you claim that the harm done to a child cannot be fixed. Okay, which way is it? Or do you think you can have it both ways.

You have erroneously claimed that I have attacked victim and that is not true. I do believe that despite your whining about protecting children in church, you and others like you are really out to get those you believe are violators. Why else travel all the way to Atlanta to pass out hate sheets? I have attacked nothing but the warped, misguided, unchristian actions and motives of christa brown and her disciples.
...
written by DEBBIE, July 01, 2009
“Sorry, bitter and misguided woman, but your argument holds no substance at all. You think what you and other vindictive women like you are doing can make thing better but it won’t. You totally fail to address the real factors. One, people (not just ministers) who take sexual advantage of young people. And two, making young people aware of potential dangers. “

No one ever said it was just ministers. Nor did anyone ever state that the data base was the only thing that was being recommended. There is not a single person that knows me who would state I am bitter, so I do not know where you come up with that, but you can feel anyway you wish about me.

”Your angry approach does nothing to help anyone. You seem to think that only ministers commit these acts. How foolish of you! Anyone can commit them. Volunteer Sunday School teachers, choir leaders, and other adults can do the same things. “

Repeatedly I and others have stated that it is not just ministers. My direct knowledge involves Baptist Ministers, therefore that is a starting place for me to try to help bring about change to protect our children in our churches.

”And what are you doing to help young people recognize dangers? NOTHING? Your constant whining that the SBC needs a list of bad boys is just a smokescreen to veil your real intent—to promote continuing, lifelong punishment.”

That is your opinion. I have actually done a number of things in regards to this not just trying to get a data base put in place.

”Frankly, you babble on and talk out of both sides of your mouth, and use quite poor grammar, which significantly reduces your so-called mission to nothing more than drivel. You say in one sentence that letting victims talk helps them heal. I’ll buy that. But later you claim that the harm done to a child cannot be fixed. Okay, which way is it? Or do you think you can have it both ways.”

I try to word things the best way that I can and perhaps you consider it babble. I do not believe that my grammar should be a major issue to anyone and if it is for you then I am sorry for that. I do not as you put it talk out of both sides of my mouth. I stated that being able to talk about the abuse helps a victim to heal – not to be completely healed. Just as we strive to be Christ like in our Christian life, but no one on this earth will be completely Christ like on this earth. Only when we are in heaven do we become as we should. The results of being raped as a child is not something anyone can completely heal from on this earth, but that does not mean efforts should not be made to improve. I look forward to when I am in heaven and my body will not hurt anymore and the emotional & physical damage will no longer affect me.

”You have erroneously claimed that I have attacked victim and that is not true. I do believe that despite your whining about protecting children in church, you and others like you are really out to get those you believe are violators. Why else travel all the way to Atlanta to pass out hate sheets? I have attacked nothing but the warped, misguided, unchristian actions and motives of christa brown and her disciples.”

Your own words prove the statement I made about your attack on victims.

I will continue to pray for you and all victims and the families that are hurt. I will also continue to pray for these people who abuse children that they truly come to understand the affects they have on those children lives as well as for those who truly repent to find peace.

I am truly sorry for you

As I see no benefit from communicating any longer on this site and with someone like you, I will no longer respond.
An observation
written by Glenn, July 16, 2009
I watched this vigorous and extended debate for a while. I had no real position on the controversy except that I have always believed that the Southern Baptist Convention cannot tell its member churches who can and can’t be employed. After reading all the posts (and many several times) plus visiting some of the websites established by the woman who wrote the book and her supporters, I can only conclude that Ken and Slick are totally correct in their analysis of the situation. I mean not to diminish the anguish that any real victim has experienced but the tone and recorded accounts of the actions of the women associated with this discussion reveal a greater sense of getting back at the alleged molesters than in making things better for the future.

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