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Ugandan pastors blast Rick Warren for opposing anti-gay law Print E-mail
By Bob Allen   
Tuesday, December 22, 2009

KAMPALA, Uganda (ABP) -- A group of Ugandan pastors is calling on Southern Baptist mega-church pastor Rick Warren to apologize for his recent letter opposing anti-gay legislation pending in the east African nation.

The Uganda National Pastors Task Force Against Homosexuality asked Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., to "biblically issue an apology for having wronged us" by intervening in the matter.

"Your letter has caused great distress and the pastors are demanding that you issue a formal apology for insulting the people of Africa by your very inappropriate bully use of your church and purpose driven pulpits to coerce us into the 'evil' of Sodomy and Gaymorrah," said signers led by Martin Ssempa, a Ugandan pastor who in the past worked with Warren on prevention of AIDS in Africa.

Warren's association with Ssempa, a leading proponent of Uganda's proposed Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009, led some U.S. critics to suggest that Warren supports the law that carries a death penalty for acts defined as "aggravated homosexuality."

After initially declining to take a position on the controversial law, Warren broke silence with a letter dated "Christmas 2009" strongly denouncing the anti-gay law and urging pastors in Uganda to work for its defeat

"As an American pastor, it is not my role to interfere with the politics of other nations, but it IS my role to speak out on moral issues," Warren wrote. "It is my role to shepherd other pastors who look to me for guidance, and it is my role to correct lies, errors, and false reports when others associate my name with a law that I had nothing to do with, completely oppose, and vigorously condemn."

After meeting Dec. 17 in the offices of Uganda's minister of ethics and integrity, 20 denominational heads formed a task force to respond to Warren's letter. The group chastised Warren for "unwarranted abuse of our duly elected officials who are in the process of making laws in the fulfillment of their mission."

The Ugandan pastors said the law is needed because incidents of homosexual abuse, recruitment of children into homosexual practice and promotion of homosexuality by organizations and in schools.

They said they don't want Uganda to repeat the mistake of Western societies like the United States, "where the issue of homosexuality was treated with kid-gloves as a minor, private issue, but these societies are waking up too late on realizing that the matter affects how their entire society is ran, what children are taught at school and literally what everybody 'must believe and practice.'"

They also cited the "take-over by homosexuals of western institutions that should have remained as defenders and protectors of moral integrity in society, particularly the church, to the extent that even evangelical church leaders in America no longer protest when a practicing homosexual is appointed into pastoral leadership in the church."

The Ugandan pastors also called on Warren to denounce the recent appointment of a lesbian as assistant bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles, the second openly gay bishop in the worldwide Anglican communion.

"The ordination of Mary Glasspool, a lesbian, as a bishop in Los Angeles without any condemnation from you has increased the widening gap between the global South church in Africa and the global North church in Europe and America," the ministers said. "In these increasingly dark days, we encourage you not to give in to the temptation to water down what the Bible says so as not to offend people."

The letter's signers described Warren as a friend who have bought many of his books and been blessed by them. "Do not let the pressure of bloggers and popular media intimidate you into becoming a negotiator for homosexual pedophilia rights in Africa," the letter said.

The pastors quoted Warren from 2007 as saying "The Bible says evil has to be opposed. Evil has to be stopped. The Bible does not say negotiate with evil. It says stop it. Stop evil."

"Since the Bible says that the giant of homosexuality is an 'abomination' or a great evil, you cannot achieve the PEACE plan without a purpose-driven confrontation with evil," the pastors wrote, referring both to Warren's best-selling book The Purpose Driven Life and his ambitious plan to apply his purpose-driven principles to improve life in Africa.

The pastors said there has been a lot of misinformation about applying the death penalty to gays. While the legislation under consideration reserves capital punishment only for aggravated acts like the rape of a child, the ministers said they support reducing the sentence for aggravated homosexuality from death to 20 years in prison.

-30-

This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it  is senior writer for Associated Baptist Press.





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Comments (43)Add Comment
Who would Jesus stone?
written by kash, December 22, 2009
This is why Jesus spoke against punishment. See how the gospel message is being subverted and damaged by this entire issue? If Christ Himself did not find it necessary to inflict penalties on sinners, why should the church that claims Him? And making a sin "illegal" in order to be able to allow the civil authorities to punish the offender is not getting around the gospel, it's ignoring the gospel.
...
written by KT2005, December 22, 2009
Kash,

So under your interpretation of Jesus He opposed all the Old Testament Law that punished sin. . . including laws on homosexuality? That is not how I remember Jesus teaching.

Matthew 5:17

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

Thank you Bob for a fair story. These pastors make valid points, and we need to know what is going on before we speak. The homosexual agenda is trying to mimic its success in the United State all over the world. The homosexual movement will not stop with acceptance of their lifestyle. They want hate speech banished and so called homophobes treated like racists. Racists are outcast with in our society, and are often denied jobs. . . fired for their words. Christians who follow the Bible will all too soon be encountering these problems. Thankfully, Uganda may be a place where we can flee and live in peace. If so, we can thank bold pastors who live for Christ like men.
...
written by kash, December 23, 2009
"So under your interpretation of Jesus He opposed all the Old Testament Law that punished sin. . . including laws on homosexuality? That is not how I remember Jesus teaching." Then you might go back and read John 8:7 -
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Matthew 5:21-48, where Jesus teaches a compassionate rendering of OT law
rather than a punishment-oriented interpretation
What is Jesus' opinion of following OT law to the letter rather than the spirit? New wine in old wineskins, an new patch on an old garment - disasterous.

Jesus would not approve of criminalizing homosexual behavior in an obvious attempt to punish those that the self righteous consider outcasts. AIDS in Uganda (as in all of Africa) is being spread through heterosexual promiscuity, not through a homosexual agenda. To go after the homosexuals is obvious scapegoating, and will turn into witch hunts where people will accuse people they disagree with or want to exploit of being homosexuals simply to get them "out of the way". There is nothing Christian about these laws, and they will not stop homosexuality or limit the spread of AIDS. These laws are about one groups desire to punish another group, nothing else. They are giving into the worst sort of nature of Religion, the side of religion that claims that God hates the same people we hate and thus we are justified in doing whatever we want to them. Jesus NEVER taught that, nor did the prophets. The devil, however, is quite happy with that attitude because of the damage it does to the gospel and people's souls.
woman caught in adultery
written by Bobby McCord, December 23, 2009
I seem to remember Christ telling the woman to go and sin no more. A saved life is a changed life. If someone stole your car would you give them your home? The homosexual life is a dangerous life full of drugs, perversion and violence. Only America protects and even glorifies this sinful, disease spreading lifestyle and only liberals seem to not be able to see the wrong in that.
Wine skins?
written by Bobby McCord, December 23, 2009
What is the deal with the wine skin analogy? The only wine I see is the Whining of the liberals when their sinful lifestyles are exposed for what they are.
...
written by kash, December 23, 2009
"What is the deal with the wine skin analogy? The only wine I see is the Whining of the liberals when their sinful lifestyles are exposed for what they are." Well, that would be consistent with your attitude of ignoring most of Christ's teaching on compassion and His radical new way of living in God's will by reaching out to the sinners rather than the self righteous. But read Luke 5:33-39 and MAYBE you'll see why I think it applies.
"I seem to remember Christ telling the woman to go and sin no more." Yeah, but he didn't add, "and if you do sin again, I'm going to stone the crap out of you myself."
"The homosexual life is a dangerous life full of drugs, perversion and violence." Oh yeah? Then why are most drug offenders, violent offenders, and sex offenders in our prisons heterosexual?
"Only America protects and even glorifies this sinful, disease spreading lifestyle and only liberals seem to not be able to see the wrong in that." It must be nice to live in a fantasy world where heterosexual men are always the good guys and everyone else is trying to ruin the world God created. Nice, but not Biblical.

Sex offenders
written by Bobby McCord, December 23, 2009
Check the sex offenders regisration list and the history of those on it. The majority of sex offenders are homosexuals. The majority of child molesters are homosexuals. You cannot honestly believe that the majority of sex offenders are heterosexuals. You cannot honestly believe that Homosexuality is not a perversion of what God set up for human relations. You are truly in a dark place of ignorance and denial.
it must be awful
written by Bobby McCord, December 23, 2009
It must be awful to live in a nightmare world where perverts are your heroes and those who seek righteousness are the enemy.
...
written by kash, December 23, 2009
My hero is Jesus and I strive to live as He did...loving even those whome the religious authorities consider unlovable. "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them." Luke 6:32
"The majority of child molesters are homosexuals." That is simply not true. Think of any of the recent cases of child abductions, it is almost always a heterosexual white male abducting, raping, and often killing (but sometimes keeping in the backyard) a young white female.
...
written by kash, December 23, 2009
For some true, non-ideologically driven stats on child molesters
http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html
...
written by kash, December 23, 2009
The statistics show that a child's risk of being molested by his or her relatives' heterosexual partner is over one hundred times greater than by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual.
...
written by kash, December 23, 2009
Try getting your information about homosexuals and child abuse from a site other than those dedicated to spreading misinformation about homosexuals to support their hatred of them. And remember that the one area in which it is true that homosexual child molestation occurred was in the Catholic church, where homophobic attitudes prevail. That should tell you something.
Your Info
written by Bobby McCord, December 23, 2009
Try getting your info from a source that doesnt promote homosexuality. I agree that adultery is also a sinful lifestyle and that it is also a dangerous lifestyle. Anytime strangers enter into a home just for sex, no one in that home is safe. Your statistics will change as gays get more legal rights as far as marriage and children are concerned. May God help the children who are forced into homes with sexual deviants for gaurdians. All I am saying is the relationship between a saved man and woman in marriage is the relationship that God intended according to His Word. Everything else is outside His blessing, and that homosexuality is an abomination.
by the way
written by Bobby McCord, December 23, 2009
I agree whole heartedly with the statement of the Ugandan pastors. We must stop the evil of homosexuality.
Still at it I see, Bobby
written by FWN, December 23, 2009
I'd still like to know if you've repented of your sins, Bobby, you know, those from Romans Chapter 1?
...
written by KT2005, December 23, 2009
If you do not believe homosexuality is a sin Kash common ground will be very hard to find. The truth about homosexuality is very ugly. . . because sin is ugly. In the information age covering up facts is almost impossible. Jesus did not seek to destroy the OT law. He quoted the OT as authoritative. This means Jesus supported laws outlawing homosexuality. For this reason the homosexual activists are out to destroy Bible believing churches. The understand, as we do, that there is no room for common ground between the Bible and their positions.
...
written by qb84, December 24, 2009
Religion is all about following what you think is better for you an ignore the rest, even when something makes no sense at all. I see no difference between this law and Hitler to be honest. All those Christians who love to say gay people have an agenda... where do u get all your info from? Your pedophile popes or pastors? I found someones comment really interesting. Something about homosexuality and drugs. It's funny I haven't ever taken drugs or smoked. I guess someone needs to stop being ignorant. Stop throwing stones or you'll end up in the same place you think we are going, too bad you won't see me there.
...
written by qb84, December 24, 2009
While your at it trying to stop homosexuality, make sure you stop homosexuality in nature. Stop the evil of divorce, gossiping, lying, bad mouthing, stealing cable, having sex without gettibg married, you know, all those stuff you all do but yet decide to ignore. Hypocrites!
...
written by KT2005, December 24, 2009
qb,

Please read some of the political writings of your fellow homosexuals. Its all there. They have made detailed plans since the 60s, and have been very successful. I also think your comments about other sins is not fair. The church preaches against all of these sins you listed. . . if it is a Bible quoting church. Homosexuality is a deadly lifestyle that kills 20 years on adverage before heterosexuals. If we didn't care, we would say nothing and let you all die from STDs. We are alone in the culture that says homosexuals are more than dogs and can control themselves. Christians have a higher view of human beings than evolutionist.
Your Interpretation of Scripture in Wrong
written by FWN, December 24, 2009
KT2005:

Your interpretation of Matthew 5:17-18 is badly flawed. Jesus did NOT say that He came to PROPITIATE the law. Rather, He FULFILLED the law by: (1) faultlessly obeying it all His life, (2) by teaching the perfect meaning of it, and, most importantly, (3) by Himself being the perfect fulfillment of the law and the prophets. Had Christ fully endorsed the Levitical law, as you contend he did in the case of homosexuality, would He not have also endorsed what the law said about adultery? Then would He not have ordered the woman caught in adultery stoned? The same can be said of many other Levitical proscriptions and penalties. As much as you’d like to, you can’t have it both ways. During His earthly ministry, Christ left no direct teaching on homosexuality, and it cannot be said that He agreed with Old Testament dicta based on this passage.

Furthermore, Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection put into effect the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:29-35, Hebrews 8:6ff). The New Covenant replaced and superseded the Old Covenant, the centerpiece of which was the Mosaic Law. In fact, the writer of Hebrews states that this was done because the Old Covenant was “decaying, old and wasting away.” (Hebrews 8:13). And since the standard of righteousness for the New Covenant is love for God and love for your neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40), it is heresy to assert, as you have, that Christ would approve of imprisonment and death for Ugandan homosexuals.
...
written by KT2005, December 26, 2009
FWN,

For 2000 years the church has believed that homosexuality is a sin. Before Christ the Jews took the same position. You have a lot of gall to believe that you, by some special enlightenment, are right while virtually every Christian leader for two millennium is wrong.

Jesus never wrote anything. To have access to His words we must believe that prophets were able to speak and write down the very words of God perfectly. . . just as the Bible says prophets can. To not believe that prophets can tell us the words of God is to say Christ's teachings are lost, or worse still to argue that His words have been twisted by men with personal agendas. Yet if we say we believe, as the Bible says, prophets can give us the words of God, the Apostle Paul's words become just as important as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John's. To be a follower of Jesus one needs to believe the scriptures as Jesus did. I know you will remember Jesus quoted the scripture as authoritative. . . because He believed that prophets were giving God's word.

Homosexuals will not defeat the church. There has always been a people preaching the truths we preach. God preserves and protects us. Yes many suffer and die for the cause, but even as we lay down our lives more pick up the torch and continue the Great Commission. To fight Christ's church is to fight Christ Himself. I know the end of the story. Revelation tells it clearly. Those clothed in the righteousness of Christ win. Those who have "done the will" of our heavenly Father are saved. I say all of this to warn you. Your way will not win. God's people have never been wiped out. We will not tire. We will not grow weary. God will have His way with us and with you. Have you not read where the Alpha and Omega says "It is finished!" These words will not be broken.
Not surprisingly, you missed the boat
written by FWN, December 26, 2009
KT2005:

Let me be VERY clear. I DID NOT say that homosexuality was not sinful. You perverted my post, and COMPLETELY IGNORED what I did say:

(1) That Matthew 5:17-18 does not prove, imply, or suggest that Jesus Christ ENDORSED the Levitical law.

(2) That we now live under terms of the NEW COVENANT and not the Old, and that the standard of righteousness has changed as well.

Instead, you did what any fundamentalist does when he cannot answer what is questioned or charged: You attack the witness. You put words in my mouth I never spoke; you put thoughts in my head, I never contemplated, and you tried to make me into a straw man to have someone to attack. It’s the only way you know how to operate. The Pharisees were good at that, too.

Now, if you will answer my post as written, I’ll debate you further on the matter.

If not, you’ve demonstrated your heresy and theological incompetence.
No such thing as a gay agenda
written by dlhunt, December 27, 2009
There is no gay agenda. Gays and lesbians do not recruit people. You cannot make a straight person gay for it is not natural for them to try to be so. Note the Ugandan pastors cite the Sodom and Gomorrah passage. Understand this: The scripture says ALL the "people" of the city came out to get a piece of these strangers. ALL means women and children too. If these strangers were angels, then what kind of sexual perversion are we talking about here? If they were indeed human men, then the women are simply guilty of lust and why should that be any different for the men?
still at it, fwn
written by Bobby McCord, December 27, 2009
I am still at it and I will stay at it as long as Liberal Liars like you hide your sin behind the name Baptist and use Jesus Christ as your excuse to promote sinful ungodly life styles. I will keep standing for right. I will keep stating the and standing for truth. I will not stop no matter how many liberal liars get mad, no matter what they call me, no matter if it is politically correct or not. What you think about me, FWN, doesn't sway the commands the Father has put in His Word, it doesn't change the convictions the Holy Spirit has put in my heart, and it doesn't change the call Christ has put on my life. There are people who haven't been saved simply because they have not yet trusted in Christ as their Savior, but there are those who are lost(like you) simply because they have chosen to reject the Word, the Conviction, and the Son. Merry Christmas FWN
Your anger is revealing, Bobby
written by FWN, December 27, 2009
You’re angry, Bobby.

I wish to God that it were a righteous anger, but it’s not. It’s a personal anger, a seething personal anger, the anger of Pharaoh, the anger of Saul, the anger of Jezebel, and the anger of the Pharisees. You’re directing that anger against me because I’ve confronted you with the truth; you’re directing that anger against me because I’ve confronted you with Scripture that proves your theology wrong; and you’re directing that anger against me because I’ve confronted you with your own sins. Could it be that your anger is evidence of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit?

And now you call me “a Liberal Liar…[who] hide your sin behind the name Baptist and use Jesus Christ as your excuse to promote sinful ungodly life styles.” What have I lied about, Bobby? Have you been unable to read the words I’ve written over and over again, that HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN? What sins have I hidden, Bobby? I’ve confessed openly that “I am a vile sinner, who but for the Grace of God would be rotting in hell.”

No, Bobby, YOU are the one who’s trying to hide your sins; sins that according to Romans 1:19-32 would condemn you alongside the homosexual; sins you are trying to hide by continually ranting against the [homosexual] sins of others to please the ears of your fellow fundamentalists. Jesus Christ certainly had you, along with the Pharisees, in mind when He said, “Ye are they who justify yourselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is ABOMINATION before God.” (Luke 16:15) There’s that word again, Bobby, the one you said ONLY applied to homosexuality.

And now your seething, personal anger towards me leads you to tell me that I’m LOST, that I’ve NEVER been saved! Might I ask just what led you to that conviction? Does your fundamentalism give you access into the recesses of my heart? Does your inerrant Bible give you a special right to judge my soul in place of God? Does your politically-charged self-righteousness enable you to condemn me for all eternity? You’ve usurped the providence of God, Bobby, and that’s blasphemy (Romans 14:10-12).

Nearly 55 years ago, I stood before my congregation and before God and confessed with my mouth the Lord Jesus, and believed in my heart that God had raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9-10). I have never waivered in that confession or belief; GOD PROMISED me that if I did that I’d be saved.

Now comes an angry, blasphemous, self-righteousness, gay-baiting, proud, boastful pastor of a small Southern Baptist church who tells me I’m lost.

Who are you going to believe?

It ain’t you, Bobby.
Strikeouts
written by FWN, December 27, 2009
The strikeouts in the previous post were not intended.
...
written by KT2005, December 29, 2009
FWN,

I think you contradict yourself. You said "(2) by teaching the perfect meaning of it". By perfect I think you mean complete. To dismiss the OT law is to destroy it. The fulfilled form of the law is not a totally new commandment. The fulfilled form has its foundation on the old command. Jesus quoted verses from the OT as authoritative. . . which is why we still preach from the OT today.

There is no sin in the law (Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”)

To say Jesus was justified by perfectly obeying the law and then turn around and say certain laws of the OT are wrong makes little to no sense. Jesus agreed with every law in the OT. Now of coarse the New Covenant is different from the old, but this does not mean the OC was sinful or wrong. Israel and the OC was to bring us the Christ, the NC is to take His Good News to the ends of the earth.

Look at how Paul used the OC to teach the church. The church fathers followed his methodology. 1 Cor. 9:9 1 Timothy 5:18
The Law
written by FWN, December 29, 2009
KT2005:

I suppose that “completed” could be used, but I think “perfect” better describes how Christ fulfilled the law. During the time of His earthly ministry, the Jewish people, and in particular the Pharisees, earnestly believed they could be justified before God by keeping the law. They did keep it, meticulously, all 613 written laws, along with the interpretations and applications of Mishna and Talmud. Jesus taught them that rote obedience was not good enough, they had to obey it in their heart as well. Witness the discourses on murder/hate and adultery/lust in Matthew 5:21ff.

Christ also taught the perfect meaning of the law by example. Notice that throughout His earthly ministry, He did not condemn folks he encountered who were guilty of sins of immorality (e.g., the woman caught in adultery in John 8:1-11; the Samaritan woman in John 5:5-25; Zacchaeus in Luke 19:1-10), those that the law roundly condemned, but rather he heaped condemnation on the heads of the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23:2-36) for sins the law allowed or overlooked, including sins of the heart.

I stridently disagree that “Jesus agreed with every law in the Old Testament.” I could cite many examples, but let me name two: First, as I noted above, the law REQUIRED that adulterers be stoned, yet Jesus did not agree in the case of the adulterous woman; and, although the law required that Sabbath breakers be put to death, He and his disciples regularly did things on the Sabbath that the law proscribed.

Paul’s relationship with the law is well summarized by the example you cite from Romans 7, but even better from Galatians 3:24, “…the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” Please remember, though, that throughout his epistles, Paul steadfastly maintained that NO ONE could be justified by keeping the law.

The Old Covenant was still in effect throughout Christ’s earthly ministry. It did not go into effect until Christ’s death on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-17). The writer of Hebrews lays out the operation of the New Covenant beautifully in Chapters 8-10, and he definitively states the demise of the Old Covenant in 8:6-13.

The apostles did use Old Testament passages as texts for their sermons; they had nothing else. Their message from these passages, however, was not a “moralizing” one, it was to show that Jesus was The Christ, who had died and been resurrected to bring salvation to everyone, Jew and Gentile alike. For the most part, the morality and “teaching” messages flowed from apostolic authority, not Old Testament scripture.

I do not say that the Old Testament is not useful. It is an historical record of God’s revelation of Himself to man; it is indispensable for understanding the New Testament; and it can provide object lessons in how/how not to live. The New Testament teaches, however, that it DOES NOT/CANNOT provide a means for man to be justified before God. Based on their rhetoric on these boards, there are some who apparently believe that rote obedience to the Levitical law is essential for salvation. That’s a dangerous belief (Galatians 5:4).
...
written by KT2005, December 30, 2009
FWN,

I do not think anyone would argue that obedience to the law brings salvation. I do think you are mistaken by thinking Jesus was saying something new about bringing the law into the realm of the heart. Love the Lord your God and love thy neighbor are old commandments 1 John 2:7. Lust did not become sin through Jesus' words Jer. 5:8. Perfect in Greek means completed. If you take perfect to mean correcting sinful law Paul would have problems with that. The Pharisees did not keep the law, hence their need of salvation from Christ. If they did keep the whole law then they would be righteous apart from the blood of Christ. . . which is impossible. Also, remember that Jesus is God and therefore has the power to forgive sins. . . something only God could do Luke 5:21. Just because Christ chooses to forgive does not mean the forgiven are not guilty. . . or that the law is bad. When Christ returns he will not forgive but judge Matt. 25:32 Rom. 2:16 Rev. 6:10 11:18 Rev. 20:12. People will go to hell for adultery, a much worse punishment that stoning. How did the text on oxen point to Christ being the messiah? The apostles certainly used the OT for moral teaching.

Are you a college student FWN? Sorry to be so short. . . its late.
Angry?
written by Bobby McCord, December 30, 2009
Wow, what a tantrum FWN. All you have proved again, is that you twist the scripture instead of obey it. I too am a sinner but I don't live a sinful lifestyle. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, until you hear the Word of God you will not have a saving faith. Read 1John, read James, read Romans, read 1 Corinthians. Jesus did fulfill the law. He met its requirements. He alone is qualified to be our savior. I need God's grace, mercy, and patience every day. But I don't continue to live in open rebellion of His Word claiming to be a Christian. Thanks for striking out most of your post, it saved me the trouble.
Friends
written by Bobby McCord, December 30, 2009
I don't write on this liberal web site to make friends. I write to proclaim the truth and stand for what is right. I use my real name on purpose, I have given my email This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it  many times. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ and I will not back away. Get used to me being here because I am here to stay.
Still angry, I see, Bobby.
written by FWN, December 30, 2009
My indictment of you is based on what you've written here for all to see, and I certainly didn't have to "twist scripture" to arrive at it. I am glad to see that you were able to read it through the inadvertant strikeouts.

All have sinned, Bobby (Romans 3:23), and if you sin, you live a "sinful lifestyle." Those who admit that can then appropriate the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ by trusting Him as savior. Those who can't will go to hell.

And please, stay here and make a fool of yourself all you want. You've earned it.
More on the Law.
written by FWN, December 30, 2009
KT2005:

A college student? Based on what you’ve written, I was tempted to ask you the same thing. As for me, I graduated 40-some years ago.

The exegesis I’ve presented of Matthew 5:17-18, including the use of the word “perfect,” isn’t mine, although I fully agree with it. It’s the opinion of many commentators of all theological stripes. Based on the many other things Jesus and the apostles did and taught, it’s the only possible conclusion for anyone but a diehard legalist. For Christ to have fully endorsed the law, it would have to have been perfect, and it wasn’t (Hebrews 8:6).

You are correct that the teachings about love and lust are to be found in the OT; however, just like the prophesies of the first advent, they were overlooked or ignored by the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ day. I stand by what I said about the Pharisees “keeping” the law; they did meticulously “keep” every jot and tittle, but they failed miserably in keeping the spirit of the law. Witness the exchange between Christ and the lawyer in Luke 10:25ff. He regurgitated the heart of the law correctly, but like other scribes and Pharisees, he considered someone to be his “neighbor” only if he were another Jewish male “lawkeeper.” Jesus called him on it. Based on what I’ve observed over the past 30 years, the same indictment might fall on more than a few Baptist legalists.

The “thou shalt nots” of the law consisted of two parts, the crime and the punishment. The Jews considered them inseparable. If a woman committed adultery, she was stoned. Period. Jesus did not condone her sin, but the fact that he implicitly forgave her instead of stoning her conclusively demonstrated that He did NOT endorse the law as it was written. The fact that He might later sit in judgment has absolutely no bearing on the matter.

Regarding I Corinthians 9:9, please read what I wrote: “FOR THE MOST PART, the morality and ‘teaching’ messages flowed from apostolic authority, not Old Testament scripture.” I stand by that statement.

KT2005, you made one statement that troubles me; you said, “People will go to hell for adultery, a much worse punishment that stoning.” Surely you know that people will NOT go to hell for sinful acts they’ve committed. All have sinned (Romans 3:23) and all are condemned and will go to hell unless they trust Christ as savior. In hell they will be punished for the sinful acts they’ve committed. Revelation 20:11-15 makes that fact crystal-clear. And you thought I was the college student?
Honestly?
written by Bobby McCord, December 30, 2009
Can you honestly believe that the life you live makes no difference. We are saved only through grace found in trusting Christ, then we are to be new creatures in Christ. The bible is clear that a converted person is a changed person from the indide out. What you are basically saying is that no scripture is relevant accept Ephesians 2:8-9. Read Ephesians 2:10. We are saved to serve not to continue living lost. Your belief may help you sleep better but it is still wrong.
by the way
written by Bobby McCord, December 30, 2009
It doesn't make any difference what you think of me. I gave up trying to appease the lost long ago. The fool in Bible thought he could continue to live any way he wanted and still be alright. Jesus called him a fool. Keep standing up for the Homosexuals and one day He will call you a fool as well.
...
written by KT2005, December 30, 2009
FWN,

Sorry, I didn't mean the college comment as a slight. Sin means to miss the mark. Obviously what is perfect does not miss the mark. So is the law sinful in your mind? My view of "fulfillment" allows the law to be perfect yet fully lived out and explained by the life of Christ. This view is consistent with the biblical narrative of fuller revelation with each prophet until the Messiah comes and reveals "all things." John 4:25-26 Christ does not contradict the law but adds to its glory by fully revealing the nature of God and holiness. So the NC is good added to good.

I would also argue that not obeying the spirit of the law is disobedience. There is no way a man can look at all the laws in the OT and say I have kept them all. Perhaps a man can self deceive himself like the rich young ruler, but Christ put him in his place. He acknowledged that Christ was from God. Yet when the Man of God told him to give away his wealth and follow Him the young man said no. This proved to the young man that he loved money more than the things of God. . . for to love God is to obey His prophets.

Prophets speak the words of God FWN. Do you agree? If so then did God not say that adultery deserved the death penalty? Is God wrong? Is the prophet wrong? If the prophet is wrong then isn't the whole Bible compromised? Jesus never wrote anything. To say we have His words is to say prophets speak Truth. Yet if the prophets are not reliable, how can we trust anything in the Bible? Your views fall under their own weight.

In regards to your last paragraph, I think you agreed with me. I said “People will go to hell for adultery, a much worse punishment that stoning.” Then you disagreed with me: "Surely you know that people will NOT go to hell for sinful acts they’ve committed." Then you turn around and agree with me: "In hell they will be punished for the sinful acts they’ve committed." Isn't that what I just said? I guess you could argue that people only go to hell for rejecting Christ. . . but what about those who never heard the Gospel and therefore had no opportunity to reject it? Romans 1 says they are "without excuse" and will go to hell. . . but for what? Sin. Yet among their sins will not be the iniquity of rejecting Christ as savior. If the man on the island who never heard about Christ goes to heaven then why do we send a missionary to him? Wouldn't the compassionate thing be to do nothing? That way he can never reject Christ and therefore never go to hell? Missionaries have long suffered in foreign fields knowing that without the gospel men go to hell. Romans 10

I was asking about you being a college student because your views are interesting. They are a mix of traditional and liberal thought. I see this most often in college students raised in good, Bible believing churches who then attend a liberal college and are corrupted. Your education being 40 years ago also makes sense. At that time liberal thought and traditional morality had not officially divorced. Unfortunately the two side are no longer reconcilable. Sometimes ideas need time to work themselves out. Liberal theology is now fully worked out and embraces homosexuality, wholesale dismissal of certain scriptures, and allows the reader to believe whatever he wants. You will not find "Thus saith the Lord" in liberal sermons. At the end of the day liberal theology stands for nothing except what the lost world wants: self esteem, self love, selfishness. This is a far cry from orthodoxy which says all men are sinners under the wrath of God. You can try to straddle the fence, but if you do enough study you will find yourself pulled to the left or right. Ideas have consequences. It all comes down to what you believe about the Bible. Is it the perfect, prophetic word of God? Or is it wise men of old who gave us some good suggestions? Jesus promised to preserve the scripture. . . both old and new testament: Matt. 5:18. I guess this brings us full circle. Have a good afternoon FWN.
to KT 2005
written by kash, December 30, 2009
"If you do not believe homosexuality is a sin Kash common ground will be very hard to find." I have never given an opinion one way or another. I have simply defended the position that Christ would not approve of imprisoning and executing homosexuals, whether it is a sin or not. I do not think that most (if any) homosexuals are part of a "homosexual agenda" or are trying to recruit children to become homosexuals, and I know for a fact that most homosexuals are not pedophiles or sexual deviants. The way a homosexual chooses to live their life is a choice, but the attraction to members of the same gender is a biological reality in most species and it varies in strength of attraction. In other words, sexuality is not "either-or" but is a continuum, with most people strongly attracted to the opposite gender and not attracted at all to the same gender, but a certain percentage of the population falls somewhere in between and a very small percentage falls in the "strongly attracted to the same gender and not at all atrracted to the opposite gender" category. Promiscuity of any type is sinful behavior, but what choice have homosexuals had? By forcing them underground, society has played a role in forcing them into the stereotypical "gay lifestyle" of back street bars and casual anonymous hook ups. When two homosexuals get lucky enough to find each other they have been living committed long term relationships when society has allowed them too, either openly or living together as "friends" or "cousins." This idea that homosexuals are leering, rapacious sexual predators reminds me of the Hitler-era caricatures of Jews, and it is meant for the same purpose: to justify inhumane and unChristian behavior to a group of people.
...
written by kash, December 30, 2009
"At the end of the day liberal theology stands for nothing except what the lost world wants: self esteem, self love, selfishness." Liberal theology stands for love - love of God, love of others, love of self. It does not eschew morality, but eschews the moral superiority that allows one group to enforce their particular take on moral issues on all other groups through goverment law.
...
written by KT2005, December 30, 2009
So society is to blame for homosexuals going to "back street bars and casual anonymous hook ups." Your views cripple people Kash. Why don't gays spend a dime and have safe sex? Expect people to control themselves and reject this animal view of human beings. If you get your morals from the apes civilization will be impossible to sustain. Mankind is made in the image of God. We are moral creatures who can exercise self control.

Middle eastern countries execute gays. This rarely happens because the laws keep gays underground just as you suggested. What are the results? Less HIV and more life. Stats are stubborn things.
...
written by KT2005, December 30, 2009
Also, if you cannot bring yourself to confess that homosexuality is sin you will have little to no standing when arguing the true meaning of Jesus' teachings.
...
written by KT2005, December 30, 2009
"love of self" Didn't Jesus say deny self?
My last post on this thread
written by FWN, December 30, 2009
KT2005:

I must say that I find your theology to be most unorthodox. Are you making this stuff up or are you getting it from commentators or someone else? Synthesized, you seem to be saying, “God gave the law, and it was good; the prophets came along and made it better; finally Jesus came along and made it best of all.” That is a very post-millennial philosophy, and I doubt that you subscribe to that viewpoint.

It is also the antithesis of what Paul and other New Testament writers taught. To Paul, the value in the law was that it demonstrated to man that he could never be good enough to be justified before God (Romans 3:20,28) and that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). To the writer of Hebrews, the law was the centerpiece of the Old Covenant that is old, decayed, and wasting away. That doesn’t sound like a “better-n-better” scenario, does it?

Based on what you’ve written, I don’t think you have a clue as to
what the New Covenant is all about. It is in no way “the good added to good” or only “to take His good news to the ends of the earth.” It is the covenant relationship between God and Man that REPLACED the covenant He made with Israel at Sinai. It is the basis of our relationship with God today. Why did God replace the Old Covenant? Hebrews says it was because it was old, decaying and wasting away (Hebrews 8:6-8, 13). As Paul MIGHT have put it, it was because it DIDN’T WORK. Do tabernacle with the book of Hebrews soon.

Finally, on justification. All have sinned; man is born with a sinful nature that alienates him from God; because of that sinful nature, man commits sinful acts. The wages of this sinful nature for all men is death, both physical and spiritual, regardless of whether they have been evangelized or not. It is impossible for man to be justified before God by good works, keeping the law, or by any means other than a personal faith in Jesus Christ. The shed blood of Christ atones for our sinful nature, but does not take it away; consequently, the redeemed can and do commit sinful acts. These sinful acts can be minimized by reliance on the power of the Holy Spirit, and will be forgiven with confession and repentance. Those who have been justified through faith in Christ will gain heaven and there be judged by Christ for unconfessed things they have done or failed to do. The unjustified will be cast into hell and there punished for their sinful acts.

These are my beliefs; they are supported by a whole host of Scripture passages; they are completely orthodox, and I would defy ANYONE to construe them as liberal, regardless of what prejudice he might have against my generation!
...
written by KT2005, December 31, 2009
FWN,

You will be happy to know that I am post-millennial. The last of them or perhaps the beginning of a Post-M revival. ;-) In regards to your Hebrews quote you keep coming back to, I agree that the OC replaces the NC completely. The NC is "better" because it is build on "better promises." Heb. 8:6 I also believe this fits my OC is good but NC is more good philosophy. Can't better mean more good? The faults of the OC were not the law nor God's faithfulness, but rather man's inability to keep their side of the Old Covenant. . . obedience Ex. 24:3. This is why Paul says the law is not sin.

You said "To Paul, the value in the law was that it demonstrated to man that he could never be good enough to be justified before God (Romans 3:20,28) and that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). "

Yet earlier you said that there are some instances where the OT law is used to teach morality. So the law is not an either or situation where morality is pitted against pointing out our need for a savior. The law does both; teaches us morality and therefore our lack of moral behavior and need for Christ salvation.

What kicked off this whole debate was your questioning Jesus' agreement that putting people to death for adultery was right. If you believe that the law is not sinful but righteousness, then you must believe that the death penalty for adultery is right and good. How hard it is to believe the Bible in this sinful generation. Is God's law right or wrong? Jesus is God. . . therefore He gave the law. . . assuming you believe in prophetic utterance. Like I said before, you have to choose to go right all the way or left all the way. The only people in the middle are those who would rather go fishing than think about theology.

Thanks for the conversation.

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