New Voice Media | Associated Baptist Press
Tuesday, February 09, 2010
| Baptist school cancels mission trip for church dismissed from SBC |
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| By Bob Allen | ||
| Tuesday, June 30, 2009 | ||
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FORT WORTH, Texas (ABP) -- A Kentucky Baptist university has, at the last minute, withdrawn its invitation to host a youth mission team from Texas after the Southern Baptist Convention disfellowshipped their church for its toleration of homosexuals. Brent Beasley, pastor of Broadway Baptist Church in Fort Worth, said the church's youth minister received a call June 30 from an official at the University of the Cumberlands informing her that the congregation's youth choir is no longer welcome to stay in dorms or perform mission work through the school's Mountain Outreach construction program, which builds houses for the disadvantaged in Appalachia. Beasley said a church near the school's Williamsburg, Ky., campus also canceled a concert that had been scheduled as part of the mission trip. He said a big part of the 12-day mission trip/choir tour, scheduled to begin July 3, was the stop at the university, affiliated with the Kentucky Baptist Convention. The Mountain Outreach program was established in 1982 by two students overwhelmed by the tar-paper shacks without electricity or running water they saw while on a driving tour of rural areas long plagued by poverty.
Beasley said Broadway's youth minister, Fran Patterson, was scrambling to find alternative plans for that part of the itinerary. Beasley said he has received several invitations and suggestions from churches in the general area. Most of them are congregations identified with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. Paula Settle, eastern missionary in CBF's Together for Hope rural-poverty ministry, said she offered to serve as host for the group in Kentucky's Owsley and Powell counties, where she works. Since construction materials were being provided through the university, however, she said she isn't sure if she could come up on short notice with enough projects to keep such a large group busy for so many days. Beasley, whose first Sunday as Broadway's new senior pastor is July 5, said the Broadway Chapel Choir, as the youth choir is called, has been taking these kinds of mission trips for years. "All these kids want to do is praise God with their singing and serve God by helping those in poverty," Beasley said. "We're not going to let denominational politics keep them from doing this good work." The Southern Baptist Convention voted without discussion June 23 to accept the unanimous recommendation of the SBC Executive Committee to sever a 125-year-old relationship with Broadway. The committee said the congregation failed to prove it had not acted to "affirm, approve or endorse homosexual behavior," a requirement for SBC membership since the early 1990s. The action was in response to a motion at last year's annual meeting calling for an investigation after news reports about a controversy at Broadway over whether to include photographs of same-sex couples in a new church directory. The church eventually resolved the issue with a compromise that used candid photos of all members instead of family portraits, but in the process church leaders acknowledged there were a handful of openly gay members and that some of them served on church committees. The SBC, the nation's second-largest religious body behind Roman Catholics, amended its constitution in 1992 and 1993 to change membership requirements by adding a prohibition on affiliating with churches that "act to affirm, approve or endorse homosexual behavior." Until then the convention, formed in 1845 to defend slavery, had defined membership by financial contributions and not by any moral issue. The 1992 action -- ratified the following year -- was in response to two churches in North Carolina making news at the time for their views on homosexuality. Pullen Memorial Baptist Church in Raleigh had blessed a same-sex union and Binkley Memorial Baptist Church in Chapel Hill had licensed a gay divinity student to the gospel ministry. Between 1993 and 2009, the SBC membership amendment had been applied only to churches that took some formal action like ordaining a homosexual or blessing a same-sex relationship. In 1993 a messenger rose to challenge the seating of messengers from Immanuel Baptist Church in Little Rock, Ark. He argued the congregation tacitly violated the membership article by failing to exercise church discipline on a member, President Bill Clinton, over his policies on homosexuality and abortion. After interviewing messengers from the church, however, the SBC credentials committee ruled that the convention could not hold churches liable for actions of an individual member and recommended that Immanuel's messengers be seated. Formerly called Cumberland College, the University of the Cumberlands was founded by Baptist ministers in 1889. The school has historically served students primarily from the collective mountain regions of Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia, Virginia, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Ohio and Alabama. University officials declined to comment on their rationale for revoking the invitation to Broadway's mission team. Sing Oldham, vice president for convention relations for the SBC Executive Committee, said Southern Baptist leaders delayed taking action against Broadway Baptist Church until the eve of the annual convention meeting in hopes the church would take steps to communicate "unambiguous consonance" with SBC membership requirements. Oldham said any subsequent action by any other Baptist body "is fully under the purview of its respective board of trustees or other governing authority." -30- This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it is senior writer for Associated Baptist Press. Previous related article:
SBC messengers sever ties with Texas church over gay members                 Comments (45)
 Act of college displays unChristlike hatred
written by Arce, June 30, 2009
This college no longer deserves to be called Christian. Please, Christians, cease donating money to such an institution as would take this out on a group of teenagers on a mission trip.
Typical Pharisaical Response
written by Slick, July 01, 2009
Way to go Cumberlands....impede the cause of Christ, harm a youth choir, deny help to the disadvantaged all over a minute doctrinal issue that doesn’t impact the people you hurt at all. Obviously not a real college but a fundamentalist Bible school.
Why not "cancel" their own seminary president?
written by christa, July 01, 2009
So... let me get this straight. The SBC can investigate a church that is reported for having 5 gay members, but it won't even look into reports about churches with child-molesting preachers in the pulpit. The SBC can disfellowship a church for having 5 gay members on the ground that it "endorses" homosexual behavior, but it won't disfellowship churches with admitted and credibly-accused child molesters in the pulpit... not even when there is a paternity judgment against the pastor... not even when another SBC minister swears under oath to knowledge about the preacher's abuse of the kid... not even when the preacher admits to conduct that constitutes abuse. Likewise, the SBC won't disfellowship a church that keeps a senior pastor who knowingly kept an admitted child molester on ministerial staff and kept it a secret. To the world at large, that sort of conduct, without serious consequences, looks a lot like "endorsing" clergy child molestation. And finally, a Baptist university refuses to even house the mission-trip students of a church disfellowshipped for having 5 gay members. But a Southern Baptist seminary retains a president who, as reported in the Dallas Morning News, turned a blind-eye and deaf-ear to dozens of reports about a minister's sexual abuse and assaults... only to let the guy move on... and he was recently sent to prison for child sex crimes in Florida. And this is what Southern Baptists call "Christian love"? No thanks. This is what the rest of the world calls "hate." It's also called hypocrisy.
Go Be Methodist
written by Slick, July 01, 2009
May I kindly suggest that christa---whioever she is--go to another denomination where she will be happier. Her comments above are reflective of one who needs serious counseling to overcome an emotional issue that seems to be eating her life away, justdging by her single-item agenda noted here and in other discussions on this site. Bitter, vindictive, vengeful, controlled by hate.
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written by tj282828, July 01, 2009
This is a smart move by University of the Cumberlands. First, every SBC church now knows that this university is committed to true biblical doctrine. Endorsing homosexuality is way out there, and Broadway's actions have consequences. This is a good lesson for this church's youth. . . your church is apostate and you need to find a true church. More pastors will now recommend that their youth attend University of the Cumberlands. . . so, this is not only good doctrine, but good business.
My favorite part of the article is this quote about the SBC: "formed in 1845 to defend slavery." I know ABP equates homosexuality with racism, but at least state that the SBC has repented of its racist past! Doesn't journalistic balance demand such information? Beside, no gay gene has been found! If one believes in God it is obvious homosexuality is a sin. Divine intent is seen in the male and female bodies, and only male and female fit for a perfect match. If one does not believe in God, believe Darwin. Homosexual acts NEVER reproduce. If there was a gay gene it would have been eliminated millions of years ago according to survival of the fittest. Either way, homosexuality is not normal or right. It violates nature and brings depression, disease, and death. "The wages of sin is death." TJ
written by Slick, July 01, 2009
So TJ, when Jesus encountered both the woman caught in adultry and the woman at the well, what did He do? Cut them off? Cast them into hell? Tell them to sin no more? We have no idea what those women did following those encounters-- thay may have sinned again. Isn't adultry sin? Is there no overcoming the sin of adultry? Is everyone who sins just supposed to snap out of it immediately? Why do you get your panties in a wad ovr homosexuality and ignore all the other sins that happen an by people who are church members? You think there are no on in the church who commits adultry? How about lying? Stealing? Having things your way would leave the church pews empty? The church is to call people to righteousness--not condem them and cut them off.
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written by tj282828, July 01, 2009
Slick,
Have you never read 1 Cor. 5, or our Lord's words in Matthew 18? Can you not see the difference between someone struggling to overcome the sin of homosexuality/adultery and those who believe that homosexuality is wholesome in the eyes of God? The church does no service to the sinner by affirming sin which kills his soul. Broadway refused to call the sin of homosexuality wicked, and thus affirmed this abomination as good. There is no love in calling that which dams the soul a blessing! Any church in the SBC that affirmed adultery as good would be cut off as well. As the Lord said "If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness." (Matthew 6:23) In other words, if what a person or church believes is light/good, is actually darkness/sin/evil, how greatly deceived he and/or his church is! Broadway Baptist Church is spiritually blind, incapable of knowing its right hand from its left. When a church cannot lead its own people to discern between the ways of righteousness and sin it must be cut off. . . lest it continue to deceive others the way it has deceived itself. True love is found in Truth. . . and the Truth of God shall set the sinner free. This is good news indeed, and I find it a shame your eyes see only bad news. ...
written by sqa, July 01, 2009
This whole thing makes me very sad as a KY Baptist. This same church ministered with Mt. Outreach just a few years ago. What a lost opportunity. These are teenagers; most don't know or care about convention politics. Yet, in the last few weeks they certainly have been introduced to the harsh reality of SBC life. Now they have a sour taste in their mouth for U of C, KY Baptist, and the SBC. What could have been a life-changing mission trip for these kids is now one more bitter taste of denomenationalism at its worst. Hurray for Paula Settle and the CBF Rural Poverty Initiative. I hope Broadway finds a place to serve the people of Appalachia through this terrific mission effort.
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written by Arce, July 01, 2009
Having people in the membership is not an endorsement of their behavior. Having them in the pulpit and paying them a salary is an endorsement! But kicking out churches that have adulterous and abusive pastors would remove some serious change from the SBC bank accounts. I dare say that Broadway would still be OK if it had not been directing most of its mission money to the CBF. There is a new way to spell SBC: Hypocrits united.
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written by curtjeff, July 02, 2009
Let's read between the lines of this story. "You don't hate people enough to be allowed to help the disadvantaged through our outreach programs. You must hate the same people we do to at least the same degree for us to let you come to our campus and to help the homeless--God says so. Take your sinful 'tolerance' elsewhere. Please don't cramp our bigoted style." Ridiculous.
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written by tj282828, July 02, 2009
curtjeff,
Who is the one who hates. Do you not know that homosexuals are 200% more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals? Do you know that homosexuals live an adverage of 24 years less than heterosexuals. It is safer to smoke tobacco than be gay! If someone was acting in such a way that literally takes their life 20 years before they would naturally die and increased their suicide chances by 200%, wouldn't the loving thing to do be yelling "STOP, you're killing yourself!" Christians love in Truth, and are willing to tell all sinners they reap what they sow (we even confront one another about personal sin). If anyone loves homosexuals, its Southern Baptist. We don't want them to die! Why do you not worry about their deaths. . . which are by the thousands. (information found on http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=255614 and health24.com) By the way, homosexuals are also 50% more likely to be depressed and abuse drugs. "The wages of sin is death." If we love the homosexual, we warn him of sin and share grace! Biblical Evidence?
written by db9999z, July 02, 2009
I can't wait to hear TJ's response to this.
Where in the New Testament does Jesus specifically condemn homosexuality? For something that is such a huge issue for the church, Jesus sure doesn't have much to say about it. And before you start quoting verses from Leviticus or elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, I think it's important for Christians to remember this little bit of logic: If the Bible is god's word, then it must be true. If the god's word is true, then everything in the Bible is true. If everything in the Bible is true, nothing in it can be false. If nothing in it can be false, everything must be treated as the truth. If everything in it is true, then the WHOLE THING is true. Therefore, the implication for quoting verses from Leviticus against homosexuality is that ALL THE OTHER VERSES in Leviticus and the rest of the Hebrew Bible must also be true and equally binding, including those on dietary laws, animal sacrifice, and slavery. So I cannot accept arguments from the Hebrew Bible as valid, because Christians do not consider other laws from those books to be valid and you cannot harvest the Bible for individual verses that suit your belief: it's either all true or it isn't, because conservative Christian theology necessitates Biblical infallibility. Turning to the New Testament, we see that Jesus has nothing specific to say about homosexuality. Either it wasn't important to him, or whatever he did say about it didn't make it into the Bible. Paul, who has had far more influence on Christian theology than Jesus, makes some comments in Romans where he appears to condemn homosexuality, but it's important to remember that our conception of "homosexuality" is vastly different than that of people in the ancient world, and this context is important to remember: Paul was writing to brand-new Christians (a religion that we would likely not recognize as Christianity today) in Rome around 58 CE, not to you or me in 2009. In short, there is scant Biblical evidence against homosexuality, unless one plays "pick the verses out of the Hebrew Bible", which leads to the logical error described above. If it was THAT important, why didn't Jesus say anything about it? On a side note regarding TJ's comments about drug abuse and suicide, has it ever occurred to you that the reason for that is the fact that homosexuals are condemned, cast out of their homes and churches, ridiculed by others, and driven into a life of fear and secrecy? Jesus called...he wants his religion back. ...
written by curtjeff, July 02, 2009
TJ-
You assume that being gay is characterized by behavior and it is not. Sexuality is a part of who a person is and cannot be compared to smoking or other behaviors in which people choose to engage--that's just ridiculous. But by your logic, since men often have a shorter life expectancy than women, we should tell all men to stop being men? That's absurd. Using writings whose authenticity are suspect and have been translated and (mis)interpreted several times over the years to justify hating someone is cowardly. You cannot condemn someone and say you love them at the same time. Especially when they don't want your "love". I could go on a much lengthier tangent about the diversity of humanity, what it means to love, and the whole idea that your beliefs are fine for you to have but your right to have them stops when it begins to infringe on how others exercise their freedoms...but that's not the issue here. What is ridiculous to me is that a group of young people who want to make a difference in the world are block out of doing so because the congregation they come from has decided not to embrace a message that is based on hate. They have chosen to welcome and engage all of their brothers and sisters that live on this earth as they come to sit in fellowship. They have chosen to broaden the horizons of their own experience and the experience of others by keeping an open mind and open door rather than closing themselves off to live and worship in ignorance and bigotry. This should be lauded not ridiculed. And these young men and women who want to give back to their community should not be told they are not good enough or are not welcome to help simply because they choose not to embrace an outdated and dogmatic ideology that does not represent this TRUTH you keep speaking of. The tragedy is that these young people will find another experience to give back and in the end they won't be the ones to lose...the ones to lose will be the individuals who would have benefited by the service projects they would have completed in the Williamsburg area. ...
written by tj282828, July 02, 2009
DB,
I don't remember Jesus saying anything about not having sex with animals or family members either. . . are you consistent and believe bestiality is ok too? I doubt it. (By the way, Christianity is the biggest religion in the world. . . and we didn't get this way by not being able to answer hard questions.) Gays are dying, for the most part because of STDs like HIV. Homosexuals have much higher numbers of sexual partners than heterosexuals. . . hence the label of perversion in both ancient times and the present. A woman and a man in marriage are able to be satisfied in a monogamous relationship. Monogamy in the homosexual culture is almost unheard of. (If you do not believe me, read their own writings!) Now, to your Biblical arguments. In Matthew 5:17-19 the Lord says "17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." As you can see, Jesus affirms the Old Testament as authoritative. Therefore, everything in the Old Testament still governs the New Testament Christian. . . but in its fulfilled form. How does Christ fulfill "Thou shalt not steal" and "Thou shalt not kill"? Well, we do not steal or kill. Other commands are more tricky. What about sacrifice? Well, Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system by this death on the cross. Therefore we sacrifice through Jesus not literal lambs, and this is done through the remembrance of the Lord's supper. One of the best examples on how to draw a principle from the OT law and apply it to the New Covenant is Paul in 1 Timothy 5:17-18: "17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”" Paul clearly state that this ceremonial law, "don't muzzle an ox," points to a greater principle fulfilled in Christ. Not muzzling an ox in the OT was to teach people to pay fair wages. While in the New Covenant we may not need to worry about muzzling oxen, we still must obey the greater principle it points to: fair wages. The early church fathers used this hermeneutic, as did Paul and Jesus. For this reason Christians affirm 2 Timothy 3:16-17:"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." ALL scripture is authoritative to the believer, both Old Testament and New. . . hence the prohibition against homosexuality stands. Please understand that homosexuality kills people. The lifestyle is not safe, either mentally or physically. These are facts/Truth. Christians actually believe there is a God who communicates to people: by both His written word, the Bible, and His Holy Spirit. God, being perfect, NEVER changes His Character nor contradicts Himself. Why? Because that which is perfect is indeed that. . . perfect. Sin is departing from God's good plan for the world/people. Since God is the very definition of good, to disobey Him is to do bad. That which is bad or evil destroys and takes away from the good life God wants human beings to have. Your ideas regarding homosexuality are man made and of this world. Homosexuality is a bad tree, and we know this because of its bad fruit. . . death. You have faith in your own mind and own ways, we Christians have faith in the Truth that comes from the only True God. Where man chooses to place his faith will determine his eternity. Those who choose to repent and follow the Lord in faith receive his saving grace and are made fit for heaven by the blood of Christ. Those who embrace their sin and wicked selves are sent to hell where their sin will no longer harm anyone but themselves for eternity. Choose wisely. . . ...
written by tj282828, July 02, 2009
curtjeff,
I know of people who are attracted to children sexually, and some find the animal kingdom feisty. Why is their sexual attraction any less natural than same sex attraction? No gene has been found causing any of these degenerate desires. Some men are born with bad tempers, do they have the right to act out their anger and kill? Your argument so undermines self control as to make a man, made in the image of God, a brute. Mankind is not simply an animal, but a moral being with choice and responsibility. Your philosophy of life encourages people to do whatever their depraved heart wants, regardless of the consequences. Put simply, your sympathy for the homosexual enables his behavior. . . the very behavior that kills him 20 years before he should die. Where is love in this? Love longs to give LIFE. . . not death! A Sad Day to be A Cumberland Alumnus
written by jdouglasadkins, July 02, 2009
As an alumnus of Cumberland College, I remember a time when the focus on the school's administration was on justice and humility and service and grace, not on legalism and the power of public opinion and the desire to "tow the SBC party line" in order to secure future financial contributions from individual congregations. Sadly, though, and institution which makes judgments such as this has no place to refer to itself as a "Christ-focused" place of academic learning.
There is a statue on Cumberland's campus of Jesus washing the feet of a disciple. John the Evangelist states that Jesus "showed them the full extent of his love" by doing this, and then commanded them to do the same for others. This week, Cumberland has chosen not to wash the feet of a group of impressionable teenagers from a sister Baptist congregation which had planned and worked to travel all the way from Texas. Worse, the administration has told this youth group that they are not fit to wash feet because of the church they attend. This is the heresy. The statue at Cumberland should be replaced with a sailboat, tossed on the sea by the prevailing wind of public (SBC) opinion and appeasement, rather than anchored by grace and justice and "loving God and loving others." I am ashamed, on this day, of my alma mater. fundamentalists are afraid of sex
written by Slick, July 02, 2009
Have you ever noticed that the ultra radical extreme conservatives want to harp on what they beielve is sexual sin more than anything else? Why is that? There are tons of sins but fundamentalists act like sin related to sex is worse than anything else? can't figure that out. Jesus talked about the plank in our own eyes while we rail against speck in someone's else's eye but the anti-sex conservatives never read or practice that. Jesus went to sinners and encountered them where and how they were, but fundamentalists forget that. Jesus told his disciples to shake the dust of their feet where there message wasn't accepted. Paul admitted that God gave some over to depravity when they rejected His truth. I don't support, encourage, endorse, or approve of homosexuality but it's a fact of life. So will all the other so-called sexual sins. Instead of condeming, each of us ought to walk circulspectly and get/keep our own houses in order rather than getting our hair on fire about someone else's so-called sin. Wans't it the current govenor of SC who pushed so publically for Bill Clinton's empeachment and conviction? Yep---now Mr. Morality seem to be caught with his knickers down. That's not unusual for the constantly condeming, holier-than-thou crowd.
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written by SharonP, July 02, 2009
Passage 1 Corinthians 13 :
1 Corinthians 13 Love Is the Greatest 1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. 3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it;[a] but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing. 4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. 8 Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10 But when full understanding comes, these partial things will become useless. 11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12 Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.[c] All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely. 13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I really don't want to get into a debate about homosexuality today. Others can argue about that if they wish. My faith journey and my heart is known by my God, and that it what matters. Broadway has been my church home for almost fifty years. I know firsthand that we have our struggles but are seeking to do what is right and to follow Christ. What grieves me the most today is how our church youth group has been affected by the SBC and their politics. My son and the rest of the Broadway youth group are an awesome group of people that make a real difference in a world that needs to experience the love of Christ. They work for months to learn the music for choir and handbells to give their very best musically to honor and worship God. They give part of their summers to travel to various places around the world to help other people and love them. During Spring Break this year a number of the youth (including my son) helped repair hurricane ravaged homes in the Beaumont area. These are good, Christian children. To depict them as anything else is JUST PLAN WRONG. To "uninvite" them to serve is JUST PLAN WRONG. Our youth will leave in the morning on their choir tour/mission trip. They will bless people with their singing and ringing. They will show the love of Christ by helping others. They will continue to make a difference in our world. Sharon Phipps ...
written by tj282828, July 02, 2009
I would have to disagree that conservative Christians are anti-sex. The best evidence of this is a secular sex study by the University of Chicago. The 1994 study showed that conservative married Christians had the most satisfying sex lives in society. To which we conservative Christians said of course we have the best sex. God is not a kill joy! His plan for sex with in a heterosexual marriage is good and it works. Again, biblical marriage is a good tree that produces good fruit. So while the world is astonished that the puritans are burning the midnight oil in the bedroom, we simply rejoice in the Truth. . . that God is good and His ways are best.
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written by db9999z, July 02, 2009
"I don't remember Jesus saying anything about not having sex with animals or family members either. . . are you consistent and believe bestiality is ok too?"
Bestiality has nothing to do with homosexuality, which is strictly between human beings. As for incest and pedophilia, heterosexuals commit those acts at a much higher rate than homosexuals, so one could argue that it is heterosexuals who pose the greatest threat to things like "traditional marriage" (the divorce rate in the US speaks for itself). "Gays are dying, for the most part because of STDs like HIV. Homosexuals have much higher numbers of sexual partners than heterosexuals. . ." I know lots of gay people, and none of them have STDs. And the claim that homosexuals have a higher number of sexual partners is problematic because I know plenty of straight people who are more promiscuous than my gay friends. It depends on how you define "sexual activity". "...hence the label of perversion in both ancient times and the present." Homosexuality per se was not considered a perversion (except possibly within the Israelite community, but even that is not certain). In Greece and Rome, it was not the emotions or even the sexual act that was considered a perversion, it was the assumption of the "female" sexual role, which raises a whole other set of issues regarding sexism, which I believe is the real root of homophobia. "A woman and a man in marriage are able to be satisfied in a monogamous relationship." Hence a certain South Carolina governor, a certain former president, and the abundance of divorces over marital infidelity. "Monogamy in the homosexual culture is almost unheard of." Two of my best friends are a gay couple who have been together for 20 years. I also know many others who have been in a loving, monogamous relationship for years. "Therefore, everything in the Old Testament still governs the New Testament Christian. . . but in its fulfilled form." This is a very convenient dodge for getting around the obvious discrepancies between the Hebrew Bible and the so-called "New" Testament and allows for the free modification of anything written previous to the Christian scriptures that doesn't quite line up with what clergy decided was true in the Middle Ages. "Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system by this death on the cross." This presumes that Jesus was the "son of god", a claim that he never makes in any of the scriptures. John 10:30,14:7-10, and similar verses do not necessarily have to be interpreted as Jesus saying he is god, they could easily be taken as metaphorical references. Also, in Matt. 27:43, "He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'", the speaker is putting those words in Jesus' mouth: Jesus does not actually say that himself (as far as we know from the existing texts). And it bears mention that all of these scriptures are translated from Greek and have been copied and re-copied for centuries, as curtjeff mentioned. "ALL scripture is authoritative to the believer, both Old Testament and New. . . hence the prohibition against homosexuality stands." And yet the prohibition against eating pork or the prohibitions against touching women who are menstruating do not stand? If all scripture is authoritative, then these other prohibitions must also stand. "Please understand that homosexuality kills people. The lifestyle is not safe, either mentally or physically." Straight people get AIDS too. They also get hepatitis and any of the other diseases associated with unsafe sexual activity. I have addressed the reasons for mental issues in my last post. "Those who embrace their sin and wicked selves are sent to hell where their sin will no longer harm anyone but themselves for eternity." Jesus also never mentions hell and damnation, nor does he ever personally condemn anyone. His message was consistently one of love and compassion for the most marginalized people in Jewish society. Too bad that is not the message that has been upheld in the SBC. ...
written by curtjeff, July 02, 2009
TJ-
Once again you make comparisons between unlike things. Homosexuality occurs in nature. Cross-genus breeding does not. Pedophilia does not. Hence why the latter two in humans are considered by the scientific community to be paraphilias or disorders, while the former is not classified as such. Incongruity is what is used by many to try to scare others into ignorance and bigotry on topics like this and it's really quite sad. There's a difference here that you refuse to see because there is no way to continue your argument if you acknowledge this clear distinction exists. But then again the SBC also supported the idea that some people, based on the color of their skin, deserved to be treated as property and not part of the family of God's children, so it shouldn't surprise me that they have now found another group that they can dehumanize and judge to make themselves feel better. And in re: your latest comments, I guess that's why a recent study found that the most conservative "Christian" parts of the United States are also responsible for the highest consumption of internet pornography per capita? It's nice to see they're not anti-sex, but clearly many are hypocritical when looking at this data compared to the message conservative "Christianity" tries to send tot he masses. (*quotes used because I have a hard time recognizing the values of charity, love, and many others that Jesus Christ preached in many of the churches and organizations that call themselves Christian today--but I say MANY and not ALL) But regardless of how you feel, none of that makes a clear case for the true tragedy of all of this. So I'm not going to argue anymore because it's futile and I could care less what your thoughts are in the end. But remember that all of us has a ripple-like impact on the world and it can be a positive one or a negative one. By spreading negativity, we breed negativity. By condemning people, we spread sadness and hurt, not only on those whom we condemn or judge but on their families, their friends, and even completely unwitting victims, like these dedicated youth and the people they could serve in the community. I look around and wonder whatever happened to "love thy neighbor." That doesn't mean "tell your neighbor he's going to hell and so are all of his friends." It doesn't mean "tell all of your neighbor's friends they're not welcome in your community." It means supporting your fellow man, even if you may disagree with him. Even if you may not understand him. Because you not only have your own eccentricities that might define you as different from your neighbor, but someday you may need him to understand you. ...
written by tj282828, July 02, 2009
curtjeff,
I do find it disturbing that you get your guide for human living from the beast. Shouldn't humans be held to a higher standard? Animals have sex with in the family. . . should we follow their example here as well. Civilization requires civilized behavior. Both you and DB cannot get past the fact/Truth. Homosexuals do have more sexual partners. . . that is what the statistics say. Don't quote experience with who you know, that is why we have statistics; so we can get outside of our own small world of experience. Homosexuality is a deadly lifestyle, and I cannot understand why anyone would label death a blessing. I am amazed that you can read and accept the statistic I referenced above and still support the homosexual lifestyle. People are dying!!! Where is love for them? DB, You facts are simply not right. Homosexuals make up a far greater share of pedophiles than heterosexuals when one takes into account their part of the population. Just look at the criminal stats. I am not saying all homosexuals are pedophiles either. Your doctrinal views are quite unorthodox, and contrary to the Bible. Here are a few verses for your consideration. Jesus said he was God: John 8:48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” 52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your[m] God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by. "I AM" was God's name in the Old Testament. The crowd understood exactly what he was saying and picked up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy. Thomas worship Jesus and called Him God. Jesus did not rebuke him or the worship his disciples gave Him. Old Testament is very clear that God alone is to be worshiped. John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Luke 24:50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen The Old Testament said Jesus/the messiah would be God. Isaiah 9 6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, ...
written by tj282828, July 02, 2009
As far as Jesus believing in Hell. . . please listen to Matthew 25. I believe it is clear that "everlasting fire" is hell. I also hope I do not need to prove that Jesus called himself the Son of Man
Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Once again "everlasting punishment" is punishment lasting forever. . . or hell. I really have a hard time understanding how bright people can miss the obvious. If you would read a conservative/orthodox book every once and a while you might just find out we have a good point now and then. As I have shown, to say Jesus did not believe in hell is ridiculous. ...
written by db9999z, July 02, 2009
Unfortunately, although Christians want to believe that the gospels are the same story told four times, the reality is that they are quite different from each other.
Mark is likely the oldest gospel book, and as such probably should have the most weight of the four. And it is the only one that was probably written by someone who lived during Jesus' lifetime, or at least had access to people who were. The other gospels were written much later, and of those, John is perhaps the most esoteric. The differences are plain in some of the details. For example, in Matthew Jesus preaches the sermon on the mount from "up on a mountain", while in Luke he preaches it on a "level place". Additionally, Jesus' birth, surely an important event in Christian theology, is only recorded in two of the gospels (Matthew and Luke) and those two books give different accounts (one has shepherds, the other has magi,and Matthew's account of Herod's "slaughter of the innocents", surely a notable historical event, is not even mentioned in Luke). These are just details and do not necessarily invalidate the teachings, but they are indicative that these are by no means unified texts. And if they were written by eyewitnesses, they need to get their stories straight. Although I'm not an expert on translation, I do know from some scholastic studies that "hell" is often a translation of the Jewish "Gehenna" or "Sheol", which are not places of punishment but are simply places where the dead go to await the bodily resurrection at the end of the world (according to Jewish theology, and also Paul). Jesus' comments on eternal punishment, if he actually said them, may have been allegorical or rhetorical devices. But at any rate, not only do I hold unorthodox doctrinal views, I hold no doctrinal views at all. I grew up as a Southern Baptist but left in large part because I couldn't reconcile my sexuality with the crap I was taught as a child in that setting. My father, who was a Southern Baptist minister, missionary and administrator for most of his life, recently left the church partly because he could not stand the politics and hypocrisy and the messages of hate about his own child that are preached by that supposedly "Christ-like" organization. Fortunately, he has found a more nurturing community in the Episcopal church. Well. I can sit here and talk about biblical history and authorship until I'm blue in the face, but I'm betting that none of that will matter to a person who clearly comes from a culture that will not accept the FACT that the Bible is a collection of very different books, written by different people over several different centuries, and further translated and copied in the centuries since, and whose church's philosophy and doctrine comes mostly from Paul, not Jesus, and which was formed mostly by the medieval Catholic Church. As for the Bible's spiritual "truth", until it can be proven unequivocally and scientifically to be true I will not accept it as evidence for anything and as such any arguments about homosexuality from a "sin" or "evil" perspective will not have any weight with me. But if it gives you comfort to condemn me and other people like me and threaten me with hell ("Those who embrace their sin and wicked selves are sent to hell where their sin will no longer harm anyone but themselves for eternity. Choose wisely. . ."), then that speaks volumes about the ethics of your belief. And if god creates people knowing that they will end up in hell, then it is not an ethical god. I do thank you, however, for the debate but I do not think we are going to convince each other of anything. ...
written by tj282828, July 02, 2009
DB,
You are very bright and thank you for the exchange as well. As I am sure you are aware, conservatives argue that the four different gospels can be harmonized. You example of "mountain" and "level place" are usually solved in one of two ways. 1. A level place in the Mountains. . . their are plains up high. . . I saw one in Wyoming a few years ago. 2. Jesus is basically preaching the same sermon but is in two different places. Preachers often preach their best sermons in more than one location. My point is all such differences can be reconciled if wanted. So. . . liberals see contradiction and conservatives see harmony. I do find it troubling that you pick your faith based on your lifestyle. Faith, if it is real, is to determine how we live. To pick a faith because it supports our own life choices is not faith/trust in God, but faith/trust in self. This is beneath religious belief and should be seen as human centered. Religion obviously focuses on the divine. I am sure you take great consolation in the fact that your side is winning this debate in the culture at large. I can actually respect your views, its people who run ABP that drive me nuts. lol They think they have religious faith, which means trust in God, but they simply trust their own minds. Let's face it, what does Broadway or ABP believe. They claim to have the The Light, but even they have to admit that somehow the world, who supported homosexuality long before they did, got to it first. Its laughable if it weren't so sad. If one knows God and claims to communicate with Him then shouldn't these liberal Christians be the first to proclaim the goodness of homosexuality? Instead they are the last ones to join the bandwagon, never asking themselves why their relationship with God was so worthless as to fail to reveal this new morality. Once again, a lost pagan world beat them to their new found truth. . . so much for being in touch with God. Broadway and those like them remind me of Jesus' words "“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men." Matthew 5:13 Its late, and I take no responsibility for misspelled words. lol Good to talk with you DB. Back to the subject
written by mcskinny, July 03, 2009
The subject of this article is not about what God's Word says about deviant sex or even marital sex. The article is about a SBC university withdrawing support from a youth group on a Summer mission trip. Maybe the leadership of Cumberland were afraid they too would be ousted from the SBC if the university showed any form of support for a youth mission group from a local, supposedly autonomous, Baptist church which has accepted members who have ongoing sexual sin in their lives of one specific nature. (It would certainly reduce the number of SBC affiliated churches were the Executive Committee to recommend ousting churches which have members on their rolls who practice any and all sexual sins.)
So, having gone back to the subject, may I pray that the youth group, which includes SharonP's son, a safe and successful mission as they travel and share God's love for all mankind. May this be a life changing learning experience for each and everyone of these young people, their families and chaperones. May God bless all they touch and do in His Name. Charlie Mac Semmes, AL ...
written by Mark Texas, July 03, 2009
Hi TJ:
I'll bet that you are a real treat to be around. You have the correct answer for everything. In fact, I'll bet you know the answer to every question even before it's asked. (I only use the word bet as a figure of speech so don't go off on a tangent about that, please.) I could debate the scriptures with you as well as W. A. Criswell or Billy Graham could. But, what difference would it make, even if you proved everything you say is true? The SBC continues to shoot itself in the foot at every opportunity. When I was a boy Baptist Churches were known for their love and compassion. The demonstrated this by welcoming "Everyone by sin oppressed" because "There is Mercy with the Lord". Baptist also demonstrated their love for their fellow man by building great universities like Baylor University. They built great hospitals and medical schools to relieve other's pain and suffering. They built orphanges like Buckner Children's Home. They carried the Gospel throughout the world. Like it or not, they are now known for being narrow minded bigots and hate mongers. That is what all of being high and mighty has done for the Southern Baptist Convention. Now, TJ, please tell me who is "Good Enough" to belong to your church? Is your wife good enough? Are your children good enough? Are your neighbors good enough? ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH? The answer: Mark 10:18 "Why call me good?" Jesus asked. "No one is good -- Except God Alone". Mark, Dallas, Texas ...
written by tj282828, July 03, 2009
Mark,
Come on. . . you're not exactly being fair. If I had argued my points poorly you would have laughed at how ignorant I am. Now, since I argue my case well I am a know it all? Under your system I lose either way. . . which is what you want at the end of the day I suppose. In regard to your question: all are welcome to attend my church, and the repentant and born again are allowed to join. I'm just following the traditional Baptist line of regenerate church membership. I am, as every Bible believer must be, quick to confess my sin/guilt to you/the world/my God and express my thanks to the Lord Jesus for forgiveness and salvation. You are right that the SBC is not perfect and needs some changes. Perhaps you could extend the SBC a little grace, since you seem to be so eager to teach about grace. I do have great hopes in the Great Commission Resurgence, and pray that God will bless it. The church has always been at war with the world, and I pray the SBC will use all the spiritual weapons God has blessed her with. After all, heaven and hell. . . the eternity of every individual hangs in the balance. The Church's keys come with responsibility. The last few sentences are pretty traditional Christian ideas. ...
written by bth, July 03, 2009
What saddens me about all this debate is that we forget that Jesus was all about loving people. In this debate we have done nothing more than reduce homosexuals and fundamentalists and liberals into categories which we can then demolish with our logic leaving everyone bitter and cut off, and most of all, discouraged that anything good can come from the church. Through this response thread, and most any debate about a controversial matter, we have people citing their sources or their chosen biblical passages in hopes of convincing the other, but in the end an outsider reading this would simply be disgusted that followers of Christ, the One who said the greatest commandment is love, would argue in such a way, or would dismiss a church for allowing homosexuals into their fellowship, or would deny hospitality to a group of youth who are on a mission of mercy.
I am not endorsing or condemning homosexuality, but I am questioning the wisdom of the SBC and this school. Baptist Conventions were founded on the idea that, even though churches can believe differently (and in fact have the right to), we can accomplish more good together than apart. We have been reduced, however, to creedalism...simply trying to define who is in and who is out. In his ministry Jesus normally tried to overturn such ideas by saying the pharisees, those who believed and acted properly, would be the last to receive the kingdom while the prostitutes and sinners would be first. So maybe for Jesus doctrine was secondary to repentance and right action...doing justice. To sum it up, whether or not homosexuality is a sin or not, how can we ever expect homosexuals (or heterosexuals for that matter) to come to Christ Jesus if our first response to them is to shun them and anyone who associates with them. I believe if Jesus were to have come in the 21st century the Gospels would read something like this, "The Baptists couldn't believe that Jesus would have supper with a homosexual, a prostitute, and a homeless guy." So if we are going to truly be Christ's followers we better start loving as he did, not waiting for everyone to come to perfection before we open the church doors for them. ...
written by Mark Texas, July 04, 2009
Thanks for the comments TJ.
I have extended to the SBC a whole lot of grace in the last 55 years. I have been a member of a Southern Baptist Church all of my life. I have extended a lot more grace to the SBC than the SBC extended to Broadway Baptist Church and certainly more than Cumberland University extended to the youth group from Broadway Baptist. While we're on the subject of kicking out people who do not conform to a strict set of rules established by the so-called men of the SBC, I was wondering if you all have elected to censure the passages in the Bible that tells about the great love that David and Johnathan had for each other. I really don't know if they were gay or not but it sounds like they were from what the Bible says about them. It certainly makes them suspect. Whether they were gay or not, I'm sure that you wouldn't want to take a chance on condoning their lifestyle. The very idea of two grown men kissing each other in a romantic way like David and Jonathan would certainly not sit well with all the "straight" men of the SBC. Shakespear might say of your arguments: "The Lady doth protest too much, me thinks. ...
written by tj282828, July 04, 2009
bth,
While I sympathize with your heart, "cut off" is a quote from the Old Testament and both Jesus and Paul are clear that sometimes people need to be dismissed from the church. . . for their own good so that they can repent of sin. The SBC is just trying to follow the Bible/Jesus. Two passages referring to church discipline are quoted above. Mark, What to say? If you equate all love with sex, then your point about David is valid. Yet I can only hope that you have been loved by someone without sex being involved. p.s. Arab men still kiss and there is nothing sexual about it. ...
written by bth, July 05, 2009
tj,
Let me also remind you that in Jesus' story of the Good Samaritain the Samaritan was hated for their religious beliefs being different and for not adhering to the law as strictly as the Jews, and it is this person who Jesus commends as being neighbor. As for the 'cut off' idea, why isn't the SBC cutting off other sins, why do they choose the one that is the hot button topic of the day. Why not cut off people who are addicted to porn, power mongerers, women abusers. The SBC may be trying to follow the commands of cutting off, but there are much more important commands to be following. Like I said before, following Christ's command of love is THE most important. I challenge you to make one friend with a homosexual...afterall, it is what Jesus would do. He loved everyone, where they were when he met them. ...
written by tj282828, July 05, 2009
bth,
The SBC is not saying never help a homosexual. We are simply insisting that churches follow the bible and not affirm a homosexual lifestyle. If a church affirmed adultery or other sins they would be disfellowshiped also. You will be pleased to know that I do have homosexual friends. They all know my thoughts on the matter and that I believe they are lost and going to hell. Yet they know my heart is genuine and that I speak because I care. I also have a cousin who is gay. Perhaps this can explain why I make my case the way I do. . . this is certainly not the first time I've had this conversation. A serious question
written by Slick, July 08, 2009
I ask this is all seriousness but I direct it to the legalist Pharisees in this discussion. If Paul could admit that he continued to sin long after his conversion (I don’t do what I know I should and I do that which I ought not to do) did his continuing sin send him to hell as has been suggested here. No, it wasn’t Paul who was mentioned but homosexuals who have accepted Christ as Savior and put their faith in him. I ask all our resident Pharisees to explain how it is that they do not continue to sin and thus are able to inherit eternal life in the Kingdom of God. Do they not repeat some of the same sins?
It’s a cheap way out to say that homosexuals didn’t really accept Jesus and argue that they aren’t really saved and bound for glory because they commit one sin you don’t like. That’s about like saying a person wasn’t healed by a faith healer because the person’s faith was insufficient. I don’t endorse, support, agree with, or practice homosexuality but neither is it my place to condemn them as our Pharisees want to do. It isn’t the modern-day Pharisees job to condemn them either. As Christian ministers, our job is to call people to righteousness and leave the condemnation God. Again I ask…since you believe that a person cannot be saved if he/she continues to sin, how do you keep from sinning yourself? ...
written by Mark Texas, July 08, 2009
I hate repeat myself but on July 03, 2009 I told TJ that I'll bet he's a real "treat" to be around. I said that because he is a "know it all" and on top of that he sounds like a thoroughly hateful and hate-filled person. In his response he wanted to play the victim and accuse me of being unfair. Well just how fair is TJ and all of the people like him who take a particular pleasure in judging other people and deciding for themselves who will have eternal life and who will not? I have several Church of Christ friends who assure me that because I'm not a member of their church that I am lost and going right straight to Hell! It's no wonder that there are so many people out there who have absolutely no faith!
Back in the days of the Viet Nam War the American soldiers couldn't tell the good guys from the enemy. The North Viet Nam soldiers, the Viet Cong, and the South Viet Nam soldiers all looked alike. The American soldiers had a saying, "We should just nuke them all and then let God sort them out!" I think we should tell all people about the Gospel and be a good witness ourselves and live our lives like we have the love and kindness of Jesus in our hearts and then, "Just Let God Sort Them Out!" ...
written by tj282828, July 09, 2009
Guys,
Trying to follow the Bible is not hate. I grow tired of people running out of logical arguments and then in desperation call others "full of hate." You talk about judgment Mark? You have judged me as a displeasure to be around. . . yet you have never been around me! Pot calling the Kettle black if you ask me. Slick, I am glad you admire Paul. Perhaps you will hear his words rather than mine. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. Verse 11 is very encouraging: 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Some had lived a homosexual life in the past, but they "were" no longer behaving this way. They had been born again. The power of Jesus to save is good news for the homosexual, whose lifestyle, as shown above, is deadly. I do believe it is important to note that, as you said, Christians make mistakes (1 John 1:8). Yet the blood of Christ is not powerless, it does radically change us. To deny this is to deny the power of God. There is a world of difference between a repentant homosexual who no longer sees himself as a homosexual. . . though he may struggle with same sex attraction. . . and a homosexual who embraces his sinful desires as acceptable. All straight men struggle with feelings that can lead to adultery, yet by the grace of God they fight the feelings. I can only hope that you would expect the same effort from a saved person struggling with homosexual attraction. My main point is true Christians NEVER embrace the homosexual lifestyle. Just as the Apostle John says in 1 John 1:6-7: 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. This is good news or Gospel for the whole world. ???
written by Slick, July 09, 2009
Since you addressed me, may I ask if you intended to say that Paul wasn't a true Christian? Actually that is what you said. Paul admitted that he continued to sin. Therefore, according to you, Paul could not have been a true Christian because he did sin after the Damascus road experience--he said it, not me. Or is it just the sin of homosexuality that keeps a person from being a Christian.
You seem to want to rank sins. Are some okay? Which one? Are you perfectly sinless in your life? Are there sins that you do that you should not, or things you ought to do that you don't? How then, are you okay and everyone else (because all Christians sin) a non-Christian sinner? You also seem to have only one agenda and that is to bash homosexuals. I do hope that you are not a pastor because it seems likely to me that your flock would never get the whole scripture. You like to use proof texts to support your position. Perhaps you should exegete Mt. 7.3-ff. If one reads through the paragraph beginning at v 15 dealing with false prophets, it says the one is known by the fruit he bears. Now, you have claimed that some in this discussion have judged you without knowing you. I would call it a conclusion rather than a judgment--a conclusion drawn from the fruit your have borne in this thread. I say again that I do not endorse, practice, agree with, support, or encourage homosexuality but I do have a great problem, as do many Bible believing Christians, with those who have such a narrow agenda as to focus so strongly on homosexuality as if it’s the only six there is. I frankly cannot believe that God can be pleased with such constant condemnation as opposed to devoting one’s efforts to practicing and calling others to righteousness. The absence of sin does not equate to Christianity—the Pharisees are ample evidence of that. A right relationship with God, Salvation through the shed blood of Jesus and struggling daily to do right comes closer. BTW, you claimed that “All straight men struggle with feelings that can lead to adultery….” What is your proof of that”? Do you know all men? Have you conducted research?? Are you an authority on all men ?? You obviously missed me because I don’t struggle with feelings that can lead to adultery. ...
written by tj282828, July 09, 2009
Slick. . . I think you are reaching. . . just a bit.
I affirmed your point that Christians are not perfect (John 1:8). Yet I also affirmed that Christians are different. . . holy. A man cannot be perfect this side of heaven, but he can be blameless (see Timothy on elders). The reason I am talking about homosexuality so much in this thread is because the article speaks about how Broadway is a church that accepts open homosexuals into their church membership. They had controversy in the church because gay couples wanted to appear pictured together in the church directory. As you know, only traditional families are photoed together. And, as you know again, Baptist only allow those they believe to be saved to be members. It is Paul who has said practicing homosexuals do not enter the kingdom of heaven. As far as proof texting goes the term normally means taking scripture out of context. These three verses are almost impossible to take out of context. Like I said, the SBC is just trying to uphold biblical standards. As far as you not affirming that some sins are worse than others, I must admit I encounter this view often. While all sin is similar by being rebellion against God, some sins are worse than others. Look at the Old Testament. Some sins deserved the death penalty while others did not. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is so bad that it is the unforgivable sin (Matthew 12:31). Yet the clincher in the argument are the Lord's own words to Pilate in John 19:11: "Jesus answered, 'You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the GREATER sin.'" Homosexuality is called an abomination and is in the category of "high handed" sin. If you are not familiar with these categories, perhaps your pastor could explain them to you. As far as your last paragraph, I must admit you are the first man I have ever met who does not struggle with lust. . . which can lead to adultery. If that paragraph is true, you need to be doing conferences on how you have accomplished this great feat! ...
written by Mark Texas, July 10, 2009
TJ:
There's an old saying that "When you find yourself in a hole, you should quit digging." Now that you're an admitted adulterer you may want to find a church somewhere that will accomodate your lifestyle. Jesus said that lusting after a woman was the same as committing adultery with her. I am surprised that your current church hasn't kicked you out. ...
written by tj282828, July 10, 2009
Mark,
My church accepts sinners. . . therefore they accept me. In fact, every member of my church is a sinner. . . a repentant sinner. If Broadway would have done the same they would still be a member of the SBC. ...
written by tj282828, July 10, 2009
When gay lovers want to be pictured together in the church directory, they do not seem very repentant to me.
...
written by Mark Texas, July 10, 2009
TJ:
Honestly, I am not trying to get into a spitting match with you, or a contest to see which one of us knows the scriptures more than the other, or who can shout the loudest, etc. I am just trying to remind you that Paul said, "All have sinned. All have come short of the Glory of God." Just because you sit with your arm around your wife for a picture in the Church Directory doesn't mean that you are a repenatant sinner. How is anyone to know? I think for a lot of people in the SBC that image is the predominate factor. It seems like for the SBC reality doesn't matter. It's the image that counts. I am certainly not condemning you for your beliefs. We all have beliefs that may or may not conform to what others believe. How in the world can a so called Christian body such as the Southern Baptist Convention remove a grand church such as the Broadway Baptis Church of Fort Worth, Texas from fellowship simply because they have not condemned some of their members sufficiently? If you or I went went through the rolls of ANY Southern Baptist Church either one of us would find sinners who may or may not have adequately repented of their sins. This is the last message that I have on this subject/ thread. I hope you are delighted. I wouldn't be so committed to trying to express my beliefs on the subject of gay people belonging to the fellowship of a Southern Baptist Church unless I was sure that Christ died for all of us. He died for you and he died for me. He died for the ones that some think are unacceptable. Mark, Dallas Texas ...
written by tj282828, July 10, 2009
Mark,
You make a good point with this sentence: "If you or I went went through the rolls of ANY Southern Baptist Church either one of us would find sinners who may or may not have adequately repented of their sins." Southern Baptists agree that this is a problem, and as a result passed a resolution in 2008 about Regenerate Church Membership. Here is a link to the resolution: http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=1189 You and I also agree that Christ died for all, and all are sinners. I truly believe if a church allowed a man to have his church directory photo taken with his mistress, not his wife, that church would also be dismissed. Once again, there is a world of difference between a man who struggles with homosexual attraction and a man who embraces a homosexual lifestyle. Men are more than mutts. We are not to be governed by our fleshly passions, but by the Word of God (John 1:1, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). Married men must control their fallen instincts that push them to mate with multiple women. Homosexual passions must also be checked. Those who embrace fornication, adultery, or homosexuality show themselves to not have the new birth of Christ. Hence Paul's quote above. Ted Haggard written by Glenn, July 13, 2009
I really wonder if certain folks here who are so vocal about condeming homosexuality aren't having some of the same issues Ted Haggard had. He talked the conservative anti-gay line but seemed to have been caught stepping over that line. He must be going straight to hell.
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Withdrawing a chance for witnessing, fun, labor, and fellowship from a group of mission minded youth surely shows what Paul had in mind when he wrote what we know as Chapter 5 in his letter to the churches in Galatia. The question in my mind is whether this act is listed in verse 19 or verse 22?
Verse 22. Can this withdrawing of support for a group of youth on a summer mission trip be act of love? Is it an act of joy? Is it an act of peace, or patience, or kindness, or goodness, faithfulness, or gentleness, or self control? Probably none of these.
Can this act of withdrawing support for a group of youth on a mission trip be viewed as an act of hatred, or discord, or dissension, or faction? What do you think?
Charlie Mac
Semmes, Al