Now THIS lady should be a CBF minister.

All this "Presiding Bishop" is presiding over is driving the final nails in the coffin that is today's Episcopal Church.

All this "Presiding Bishop" is presiding over is driving the final nails in the coffin that is today's Episcopal Church.

Hmmm - no personal salvation = no personal accountibility, ie sin.....this is all orchestrated by the pro-homosexual behaviour movement. I won't be fooled by a false prophet.

This is the death of the American Episcopal movement as we know it. The churches that are splintering and associating with the South American and African dioceses are going to survive. The others with shrink down even more that what they are doing now.

The Anglicans have access to the same scripture, the same knowledge about God, Jesus, salvation as we Baptist have. If they choose to believe differently, let them. I don't think this woman could be more wrong except possibly to proclaim atheism. I wonder why anyone-—particularly Baptist—should care what she says?

We all know the struggles that the Episcopal Church is having. However, that article about what Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori said made me think of the following:

Matthew 22: 37 - 40

So, we are to love God and we are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.

Loving Bishop Schori means to me finding the good in what she said. I can leave the rest behind.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." II Peter 2:1
And
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." II Timothy 4:3

Once again I am stunned by the utterings of an Epicopal cleric that attempts to contradict the meaning of Scripture. There is no way for a sinner to achieve salvation except through the shed blood of Jesus. We are called to repent and to acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. That is the requirement "For all men sin and fall short of the Glory of G/D". Without a personal relationship with Jesus and His righteousness imparted to me as an imperfect sinful man then I would be lost. There is no requirement that I have to participate in group discussions, charity work or becoming a member of the Epicopal Church. What this means is that a personal relationship with Jesus is all that is required. Knowing Him will guarantee that I am never isolated. I think the "good" reverette needs to look into Scripture a little deeper to find truth and that she should stay away from the heresy she is presently espousing.

While this does not surprise me it sickens me to see that this is obviously a unitarian/humanistic agenda being pushed here. Her ideas on how we become whole (by connecting/sharing with others) is completely works based. How I became whole is by faith in Jesus Christ and by confessing and believing that there is nothing I can do to save myself, but that it is a work Christ is doing in me through HIS sacrifice and HIS connection with the whole world because he helped to create it. Out of this work that Christ is doing in me grow the works of sympathy, compassion and sacrifice that I practice. It is not me that does them but the Spirit through me. All of my works and "connections" that I make on the human level mean nothing if they are not based in sharing Christ's love. i.e. "though I speak with the tongues of men and angels...and have not love I have become as a sounding brass or clanging cymbal..." I must connect spiritually with Christ before I can truly connect with my fellow man. "Harmony" is not the goal...Love and Truth are the goals to strive toward.

I really do appreciate ABP for providing various viewpoints and a forum for the discussion of those viewpoints. Everyone's contribution can stimulate thought, challenge our own perspective, and enliven discussion of the Christian faith.

Of course, we are saved by grace individually one person at a time!


Just as each of us is involuntarily born into this world one at a time, we are similarly spirit born into the family of God individually. However, Bishop Schori makes the point that it is heresy to believe that it is we who save ourselves by mere recitation of the sinners prayer. This one valid point gets buried under her ignorance of orthodox soterology, the doctrine of salvation.
It is natural for those deeply engaged in Christian organizational service and administration, to be impatient with the single drip point of individual entry into God's Kingdom and the first baby steps of the Christian walk. As Paul tells us:

Romans 10:9-10

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

God by sovereign grace provides the faith, evidenced by our response:our initial inspiring breath of belief and our first expiring breath of vocal confession! We are not even saved (regenerated) by our belief or our confession any more than we are saved by any merit, deed or singular work that we possess or do. Even the initial confession is our RESPONSE to what GOD has ALREADY DONE IN US INDIVIDUALLY AND FOR US THROUGH CHRIST'S ATONEMENT!
I see a Martha focused on works and application as opposed to Mary who is focused only on Jesus. Giving Bishop Schori the benefit of the doubt, we might forgive her impatience with the individual process of salvation and perhaps her forgetting first things in focusing on the pressing business of her denominational duties and applications. Nevertheless, her labeling orthodoxy as heresy is suggestive of even greater apostasy on her part. As Christians, we are to rightly discern and challenge error within the church particularly in those raised up in leadership; however, we give God the final Word, which might be suggested in Hosea 4
"There is no faithfulness, no love,
no acknowledgment of God in the land.
2 There is only cursing, lying and murder,
stealing and adultery;
they break all bounds,
and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
3 Because of this the land mourns,
and all who live in it waste away;
the beasts of the field and the birds of the air
and the fish of the sea are dying.
4 "But let no man bring a charge,
let no man accuse another,
for your people are like those
who bring charges against a priest.
5 You stumble day and night,
and the prophets stumble with you.
So I will destroy your mother-
6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
"Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
I also will ignore your children.
7 The more the priests increased,
the more they sinned against me;
they exchanged their Glory for something disgraceful.
8 They feed on the sins of my people
and relish their wickedness.
9 And it will be: Like people, like priests.
I will punish both of them for their ways
and repay them for their deeds.

It is both correct and error to say each of us is "saved" individually. Salvation is not a singular individual event. It is a process, or walk, which has an individual point of beginning, a community, social context and personal effort/cooperation, followed by another sovereign work of God's grace in our final glorification :

1) We are born into the kingdom individually; however, we are born into and sanctified within a community. We receive our pardon from the PENALTY of sin or justification one at a time.

2) We are set free of the POWER of sin in our lives through sanctification, which involves human effort, divine enablement within the called out ecclesia or church.

3) In the end God sovereignly takes us from the PRESENCE of sin or glorification!

While she has every right to believe what she wants to believe, it is very sad that her universalist views are being taught at correct by a major denomination in our country. I know that this is the way the USA part of this denomination have been leaning for some time, but to have a very high ranking official in the church stand and loudly voice this non-Biblical theology is extremely sad.

Step by step, piece by piece, Shori is dismantling the Episcopalian faith and re-envisioning it as nothing more than another vision of the unitarians. She only speaks against personal salvation because it will lend itself to promoting "corporate salvation" and propel the Episcopalians to a complete acceptance of Universal Reconciliation - the same old heresy that has cropped up again and again nearly since the beginning of the Christian faith.

Sadly, far too many these days have so bought into the "unity at all costs baloney" that rears it's head here in this forum as (the false) "judge not" mentality that they are willing to walk arm in arm with a proven false prophet like Schori and call it "brotherhood".

Lord God help us.

A more rounded view is summarized by Mr. Van Gelder:

Defining salvation in individual terms is biblical, but it is not all that the Bible teaches. The Spirit of God is creating a new community as the body of Christ. While salvation is always individual in its effect, how it is to be offered and experienced is very corporate. To be converted to Christ is to be converted to his body, the church. The church is not a collection of self-selecting individuals who assemble to have their needs met. The church, as the creation of the Spirit, corporately offers salvation to individuals, but this salvation is accepted and experienced within a community.

Answer to:
Why care? written by Slick,
We must care because God would that none should perish but all would be saved and come into the knowledge of the Son.

He said that He has no pleasure in the death of sinners, then says, "Turn and Live".
Eze 18:32

That being said everything that has been said here so far about fasle prophets is spot on with this tiny exception.

To Ragfish, and others- There is no such thing as corporate salvation. The only reason we all go together is because we might all be together in the same room at the time. However, there can be some of our company who've gone through all things with us and still be left- as in the case of the 5/5 virgins. Even IF the entire room is saved, being in the room doesn't sanctify those who won't make a spiritual effort to be so. Simon the Seer believed and was baptized, yet his heart was not right with God.

Salvation is for a committe of one.
Sanctification, though easier in a group is for a committe of one.
Glorification, though shared by all and endued upon us by our Father, is for a committe of one.

The Word upon stony ground will never produce ears to hear. This bishop is proof of her upbringing, a product of her history. While she is leading now, prior to this she was being lead. Seeds grow after their kind. As with any other well-dressed sinner, she needs to be born again.

I needed it she needs it. As Paul said of the Jewish religious hierarchy, "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." Rom 10:2 God's gospel simply doesn't fit the natural man's idea of what God should be and do.

This discussion is good for us because it helps us to wash the gray out of the black and white of the gospel. Every color and hue is available to our God and we see Him use them in all of nature. However, personal salvation is yea or nay: the blackness of hell or the Brilliance of His glory. We have been given the choice to stand wheresoever we will. She has that right. We can only pray for her and her ilk.

There is a reason they call them primates.

Welcome to the "New Age".This Bishop and others like her are part of a United Nations effort to create a one world religion or interfaithism.Google those terms and research it for yourself. They have been making a lot of progress to get it done.This article shows some of their beliefs. We were told about this so it's really no suprise. Ubuntu...give me a break.

Hey, I know how they could market it: as "The UNreligion" -- you know, like 7-up is the un-cola... get it? And their adherents could say they're "un-religious," just to get their smug superiority thing going. They'd have their bases covered: on the one hand they'd have it over on the religious, since we all know how bad being "religious" is (we're all "spiritual" now), and on the other, they'd have it over on the non-religious, although that would really be better than being religious, but not as loving or caring as being un-religious.

The CBF is all over the United Nations thing. A major part of their meeting was "an exploration of the ways CBF partners are implementing the U.N.’s Millennium Development Goals... to end by 2015 poverty and its tragic side effects."

Everyone is right. Everyone else is wrong. I'm righteous and you're a heretic, unless you believe the same thing I do. Christians can't get it right (Catholics vs. Protestants), Jews can't get it right (orthodox vs. reformed), Muslims can't get it right (Shia vs. Sunni), and the list goes on and on. Ask any astronomer - there are plenty of other livable rocks orbiting other stars out there and I'm willing to bet anyone that they've got communities of faith with primacy of belief. I'm so tired of the finger pointing... can we just bury terms like "heretic"?

And they know we were Christians by our love. I expect Jesus would be happy to have dinner with any in his body...and that any corrections he might offer to "right belief" would be demonstrated by his love and mercy. As those called by his name we can do nothing less. Pray for and love oneanother.

Peace be with you!

I agree that the Episcopal Church in the United States is a church in crisis. And after reading this story, I can certainly see why.

The Bible is quite clear on the two main points touched on in this story: salvation through the individual's acceptance of Jesus Christ as personal savior. I guess the presiding bishop missed John 3:16 and Acts 2:21.

Also, regarding homosexuality, Romans Chapter 1 could not be more clear. Not to mention what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

And, a good contrast here is Proverbs 28:18.

I am amazed that as many people stay with the present-day Episcopal Church in the United States as do.

No one knows the mind of God. But one has to wonder: Has He written the word "Ichabod" over the door of the Episcopal Church in the United States?

we need to pray... pray for revival... it is time for Christians worldwide to revive James 5:16a "The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (NKJV) We need to pray like Elijah. God is the righteous judge; it is time for us to keep our opinions to ourselves and raise our concerns in prayer to our LORD of Hosts.

Take a long hard look at the Episcopal Church, because that is where the Baptists are headed unless they repent before God. Tolerance for the same disgraceful sins that brought down the Episcopal denomination are present in the Baptist denomination in embryonic state. Love of money, tolerance for sexual sin, rampant divorce and remarriage, ordaining ministers without regard for their theology, ordaining women, and on and on and on. Think about it.